Alternative to Third Forward for Hydraulic Powered Attachments

[jigs_n_fixtures]

I want a grapple on the rock bucket for my tiny tractor. I can get the add on kit, and mount one up to my existing bucket with no real issues. Except I don’t have a third function going forward. The after market kit, with soft hoses, is about $800. The manufacturer‘s version with hard lines is about $1200.

So, I started wondering about running a grapple with an electric actuator. Most of them are far too undersized. However, I found an Electro-Hydraulic actuator on eBay, which consists of a double acting 12-Volt electric pump, (like is used on dump trailers), with about a 1-quart reservoir, directly coupled to a double acting hydraulic cylinder. Ten inch stroke, about 2400-pounds of force. I sent a message to the seller to find out what the rod and pin diameters are.

At $230 with free shipping, plus about another hundred for wiring, connectors, controls: This seems like it might be far less expensive than running a third hydraulic circuit forward. The loader control handle has three positions for switches built in. So, I could do a really clean installation Which would function as well or batter than the hydraulic forward.

Anyone seeing down sides I’m missing this approach?

Alternatively I could get one of the self contained pump and reservoir assemblies and mount it to the tractor body, and run the hydraulics forward. Still considerably less than buying third forward kit. Anyone see downsides to this approach?

 

[KiotiKowboy]

I ran lines from an extra set of rear remotes to the loader cross bar. Works great.

 

[Jchonline]

I want a grapple on the rock bucket for my tiny tractor. I can get the add on kit, and mount one up to my existing bucket with no real issues. Except I don’t have a third function going forward. The after market kit, with soft hoses, is about $800. The manufacturer‘s version with hard lines is about $1200.

So, I started wondering about running a grapple with an electric actuator. Most of them are far too undersized. However, I found an Electro-Hydraulic actuator on eBay, which consists of a double acting 12-Volt electric pump, (like is used on dump trailers), with about a 1-quart reservoir, directly coupled to a double acting hydraulic cylinder. Ten inch stroke, about 2400-pounds of force. I sent a message to the seller to find out what the rod and pin diameters are.

At $230 with free shipping, plus about another hundred for wiring, connectors, controls: This seems like it might be far less expensive than running a third hydraulic circuit forward. The loader control handle has three positions for switches built in. So, I could do a really clean installation Which would function as well or batter than the hydraulic forward.

Anyone seeing down sides I’m missing this approach?

Alternatively I could get one of the self contained pump and reservoir assemblies and mount it to the tractor body, and run the hydraulics forward. Still considerably less than buying third forward kit. Anyone see downsides to this approach?

Are you fabricating a grapple? Most grapples come with the hydraulic cylinders to spec. If you are providing the cylinder then it would need to match the grapple (ie you want the grapple to be able to open wide enough and with the size of the claw still provide enough clamping force). One quart of fluid is not much to work with, it may heat up if used much...but grapples dont tend to be constantly opened and closed.
Can you link it?

 

[Jchonline]

I ran lines from an extra set of rear remotes to the loader cross bar. Works great.

This is a very common approach. Some folks are just fine with actuating the grapple claw from a remote lever beside the FEL control arm. Not bad if you can route the hoses nicely and dont need the remotes for anything else while the grapple is on.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Are you fabricating a grapple? Most grapples come with the hydraulic cylinders to spec. If you are providing the cylinder then it would need to match the grapple (ie you want the grapple to be able to open wide enough and with the size of the claw still provide enough clamping force). One quart of fluid is not much to work with, it may heat up if used much...but grapples dont tend to be constantly opened and closed.
Can you link it?

Here is a link to the cylinder: 10" Hydraulic Linear Actuator Stroke 2300 lbs Max Lift Electric Motor 12V DC US | eBay

I bought a Titan “Add-A Grapple” 48"-60" Bolt-on Bucket Grapple Attachment

The grapple cylinder has a five inch stroke, and the electro-hydraulic one is a ten inch stroke. But, I think I can get around that by adding a couple of limit switches, which would kill the power to the pump, when the grapple is either fully open or closed.

 

[Vigo327]

I actually just installed one of those cylinders as a top link for the 3pt hitch on my tiny tractor.

I think these things would 'mostly' work fine for an electric grapple. Biggest downside is, it's fairly slow. Another thing to consider is, depending on how you used it you could possibly use your loader hydraulics to pry the grapple lid against the extended cylinder and have it be more susceptible to bending the cylinder rod if it's much thinner than the originally intended cylinder.

As far as limit switches, i wouldn't bother as long as there is something to mechanically stop the grapple movement. I doubt its exactly a 6.5" travel cylinder, that's probably just how much travel that cylinder as while hooked to that specific linkage/geometry. Ive put an amp clamp on the cylinder im using and it pulls 20 amps unloaded and only hits 22amps when it reaches travel limits and starts pumping open its pressure relief valve. You can put that through something like a winch solenoid or even a regular 20-30amp rated 6-terminal or 'motor reversing' switch. Just make sure whatever buttons are you using are momentary buttons that spring off whenever you're not pushing on them so you cant accidentally leave it on.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Thanks. I’m waiting for information from the seller on what diameter the pin and cylindeer rod are. But will probably order one.

It just seams a lot more cost effective than adding the third forward.

 

[kimtexn]

I looked at them, too, when I was looking at the various third-function alternatives. I found info somewhere that showed that the electric ones will open and close really slow. Vigo337 confirmed that with his top link installation. That may not be the case with this one, but see if you can find more info about that. They are geared way down to increase the power from what you get from a fairly small electric motor.
If your tractor has a rear remote, that's probably the cheapest and simplest way to do it. Your total cost is just hoses and fittings. R1-06 3/8" SAE 100R1AT Hydraulic Hose is $1.68/foot right now at discounthydraulichose.com. Running from a rear remote up to the grapple is done a lot, based on what I've seen in many threads in this forum.

 

[ericm979]

The solenoid valve for a 3rd function is under $200. Besides that you need hoses, wiring and a switch on the joystick, same as you'd need for this 12v thing. So it's not going to save you anything, and you'll get worse performance and more maintenance from it.

You don't need to use the manufacturer's 3rd function kit. There are threads on here of people rolling their own 3rd function. If you can weld up a couple brackets, run hoses and wiring, it's not hard.

 

[Jchonline]

Thanks. I’m waiting for information from the seller on what diameter the pin and cylindeer rod are. But will probably order one.

It just seams a lot more cost effective than adding the third forward.

Looks like the "Free Load Speed" is 0.6 in/sec. If you are moving 6 inches, that is 10 seconds. Not terrible, but also not like the normal grapple cylinder either (it will be faster).

I cant find the cylinder diameter on the titan grapple, did you see it? Would be nice to compare.

The seller has the cylinder inner diameter:

Input Voltage：	DC12V
Hydraulic Motor：	300W;3000r/m
Max Push Load on Straight：	10500N/2300LBS/1050KG
Free Load Speed：	0.6 inch（15mm）/s
Stroke：	10 inch / 250 mm
Retracted Length (mm)	15 inch / 390mm
Extended Length (mm)	25 inch / 640mm
Cylinder Inner Diameter：	1.38 inch/35mm
The Thick of Telescopic Rod：	0.7 inch/18mm
Operation Temperature：	-26 ° C ~ 65 ° C
Protection Class：	IP65
Material：	Metal

 

[Vigo327]

I know it has a 16x1.5 metric thread on the end of the rod because I swapped out the end for a spherical joint with a 5/8 through hole. I drilled the other end of the cylinder to 5/8 as well. Stock cat1 top link pins are 3/4 but i was using a 5/8 pin before anyway and having the play makes me feel a little better about one end of the cylinder not having any articulation. The stock holes on the cylinder ends are 1/2 which should be fine for the grapple.

If you dont already have an auxiliary hydraulic circuit with valve on your tractor this will be WAY easier and cheaper than buying and plumbing that in.

 

[Vigo327]

My electrohydraulic top link is still working fine. Just.. slow. It's noticeably slower when loaded than when unloaded, to the point that i sometimes turn around and stare directly at the rod/cylinder dust seal area to see if it's moving. Having said that, im VERY happy with it being such a cheap solution to a power top link and im planning to build a 'hydraulic thumb' for my backhoe using the other one i bought (i bought two). That tractor actually has some ports I could plumb into (would still need valve) but.. im saving those for a bucket grapple.

In terms of using it for a grapple it would NEVER be loaded up as much as my top link is because the grapple lid weighs next to nothing compared to entire Cat1 3pt attachments my cylinder is essentially lifting. You also probably don't need the full force of the cylinder either since usually what you are doing with a grapple is shrinking the hole that things can escape through, not holding the objects with pure pinching force. If you didn't need the full strength of the cylinder you could move the attachment point inwards toward the pivot pin wherever it hooks to the grapple lid and that would speed things up.

Really, my main complaint with this thing is that there's so little variety. I waited a long time to buy these cylinders because i couldn't find anyone that had them and i couldn't find anything else even similar for similar money. So i couldn't find different bore size, different stroke length, etc. It's just hey, here's this one thing and if you can use it great, if you can't well tough crap.

Here are 2 pics showing max tilt in both directions with my box blade. I could probably rejigger the mounting a bit to get more 'rearward tilt' but the forward tilt is much more useful to me, and the way it is right now is perfect for box blade use in my opinion. Clearly not a grapple, but hey it's in use lifting heavy objects and making me happy, which is as close as you're probably gonna get to 'real world example' of these cylinders on a tractor. Unless my idea takes off.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP........Alternatively I could get one of the self contained pump and reservoir assemblies and mount it to the tractor body, and run the hydraulics forward. Still considerably less than buying third forward kit. Anyone see downsides to this approach?

I'm not buying the whole electro-hydraulic argument. Sure you can do electro/hydraulic cheaper. But that's what you get in return, too. I think you are fooling yourself by comparing the ebay electro/hydraulic with an $800 or $1200 hydrualic kit.

You already have hydraulics. Adding another circuit is just a matter of some skull sweat to design it & buying the parts online. A single spool directional control is $75.00. A cylinder $125, diverter valve or PB is $50, and $50 for hoses. All from the Surplus Center or any similiar outlet.

The rest of the work to mount a grapple is all the same with any system, but with full hydraulics you have strength, speed, and the abilty to withstand the bucket curl. The electrical over hydraulic gives you none of that. You might as well just have a manual grapple that is closed with a lever or winch...
Sorry to disagree,
rScotty

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

I'm not buying the whole electro-hydraulic argument. Sure you can do electro/hydraulic cheaper. But that's what you get in return, too. I think you are fooling yourself by comparing the ebay electro/hydraulic with an $800 or $1200 hydrualic kit.

You already have hydraulics. Adding another circuit is just a matter of some skull sweat to design it & buying the parts online. A single spool directional control is $75.00. A cylinder $125, diverter valve or PB is $50, and $50 for hoses. All from the Surplus Center or any similiar outlet.

The rest of the work to mount a grapple is all the same with any system, but with full hydraulics you have strength, speed, and the abilty to withstand the bucket curl. The electrical over hydraulic gives you none of that. You might as well just have a manual grapple that is closed with a lever or winch...
Sorry to disagree,
rScotty

The dealer I talked to said they can order the kit from TYM which fits. Hard hydraulic lines on the FEL, new mounting plates to accommodate six hoses, correct buttons to install in the stock loader handle For around $1100.. That would be a very simple bolt on which could be done in a Saturday. I tried going that route and the kit got lost in shipping, then the replacement got back ordered.

Another option is a kit from Summit, around $750, I may have to round up flexible hydraulic lines, or bend hard line myself, and come up with my own mounts. that is a full weekend, plus an afternoon during the week, and then at least half of a Saturday.

The third option is to buy valves and an add on switch and fabricate everything myself. Which I can do, but will require a weekend to get everything measured, at least one day off work to get the hoses and mounts fabricated, (the guys who sell steel, and make hoses don’t work weekends), and the next weekend to get it all installed.

The electro-hydraulic is attractive only because I don’t have a bunch of hydraulics to fabricate, and figure out where to route. The pump/reservoir can mount on the FEL, wiring is pretty easy to run, a trailer wiring plug and socket, make it pretty easy to connect disconnect.

 

[rScotty]

SNIP..... that is a full weekend, plus an afternoon during the week, and then at least half of a Saturday.

SNIP..... Which I can do, but will require a weekend to get everything measured, at least one day off work to get the hoses and mounts fabricated, (the guys who sell steel, and make hoses don’t work weekends), and the next weekend to get it all installed.

It's hard to figure time vs money on a hobby.

 

[ovrszd]

Thanks. I’m waiting for information from the seller on what diameter the pin and cylindeer rod are. But will probably order one.

It just seams a lot more cost effective than adding the third forward.

Research "Diverter Valves". A diverter and the accessories to make it work will cost $350 at the most. Will share your curl function. Very common setup for 3rd function.

 

[npalen]

https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Electric-trailer-Double-Acting/dp/B01BV41U7K?th=1

An alternative?

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

https://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Electric-trailer-Double-Acting/dp/B01BV41U7K?th=1

An alternative?

The flow rate is too low, and I think the pressure is too high.

Just double checked: The cylinder volume for the one installed on the grapple, is about .2-gallon. So at the rated 2-gpm @3200-psi, it could go full stroke open or close in about 6-sec. I would probably lower the pump blow off pressure down to around 2500-psi.

Now I need to figure out how sensitive to orientation the inlet on the pump is. They are designed to mount on a trailer in a relatively flat position. Mounting it on the FEL with the inlet moving around might not work well.

 

[MossRoad]

Your grapple came with a cylinder and hoses. I'd just get a 12v solenoid valve for under $200 and install it in your dump/curl circuit. You'd need a couple of hoses, some fittings, wire, and a switch on your joystick. I'd guess you could do it for under $400, $500 certainly, and it would be a nice, neat, quick to operate installation.

 

[ovrszd]

Your grapple came with a cylinder and hoses. I'd just get a 12v solenoid valve for under $200 and install it in your dump/curl circuit. You'd need a couple of hoses, some fittings, wire, and a switch on your joystick. I'd guess you could do it for under $400, $500 certainly, and it would be a nice, neat, quick to operate installation.

Yep. That was my suggestion as well. If you locate the diverter out on the FEL arm just behind the SSQA or however the bucket attaches, the hoses will be short.

No way would I consider adding an electric motor, additional hydraulic pump and a tank to do something so basic as run a Grapple. Well,,,, after consideration,,,, there's no way I would add that equipment for any function.