Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[bnold]

Easer link says 7kw single phase.

Tesla wall home charger is good for 11.5kw single phase.

 

[Agvg]

This is what people have at home, what else do they need?

 

[Fuddy1952]

I can see both sides, however (& you knew that was coming ), you have to compare apples to apples.
When someone says "I can charge my EV at home overnight for $2"...think of the ACTUAL cost.
I just for fun pick two: a Tesla 3 and Hyundai Elantra. Wait: before the yelling "no comparison, Tesla is 10X better, made in USA, etc.", just a quick comparison.
Assume for argument you keep each 10 years and new batteries will be needed in 10 years. In 10 years each have 120K miles.
Hyundai is about $20,000...Tesla $45,000
Hyundai 10 yr/100K drivetrain warranty
Tesla 8 yr/100K drivetrain warranty
What's the real cost? Hyundai assume 30 mpg, gas $4/gal. = $16,000 fuel+ $800 oil/filter+tires.
Tesla assume 130 mpg (equivalent), using $2/day figure X 6 days/week =$6,240 charging + tires.
Bottom line, Tesla costs $25,000 more to start with (less $2,500 - $7,500 fed/state credits but + charging hook-up) so just say $20,000 more to start.
Now that bugaboo the batteries. If they are $23,000...that's probably what the EV is worth (maybe), so may as well dynamite it.
Yes, assuming gas in 10 years is $4/gal and electricity doesn't increase in 10 years (reality is both probably increase proportionately) then you paid $20K more upfront, only to save $10K over 10 years.
In the end, the Tesla will be worth way less than the Hyundai. However:
Adding more confusion is lots of articles claim batteries degrade 1%/year...so the 10 year old Model 3 would have 90% battery life. Similar to some Elantras needing motor or transmission just past warranty.
In the long run it seems like spending a dollar to save a dime.

 

[Agvg]

But the batteries last longer, and how will the economy of this two vehicles be if the both are in full working order after 10 years?

 

[Cub 7275]

Well, against my better judgement, a post finally pushed me off the fence to post in this thread. Way to much to address, but here are a few:

Not so fast. Economies of scale. Operating huge plants (well, even small ones!) at low output levels means cost per unit is going to be higher. As a plant operator/manufacturer if you KNOW that demand will more or less be permanently reduced (from whatever forces, be it a reduced interest in your product or via some legislated edict) you're going to look to scale back in a more permanent manner: if multiple manufacturers then some may look to try and hold higher output up in an effort to be the last man standing.

No doubt mass adoption EVs would bring many challenges, but oil isn't one of them: The Oil Sector Will Survive The Arrival Of The Electric Car Just Fine
"Why is oil so resilient? Because demand growth for oil in sectors like petrochemicals, heavy industry, aviation and other heavy transport keeps expanding significantly. And these segments are largely insulated from fuel switching." "Even under the rosiest forecast for electric vehicles ...... that equates to a 10% hit to the oil industry – hardly a death blow."
Just one of our many customers goes through at least 10,000 gallons of grinding oil per year. Oil will be around for a long time.

This is true, but once one gets their new car home they experience the charging problems so much that 20% of the people do not buy another EV when it's time to get a new vehicle. The big question is how many people foresee the charging problem and are not blinded by the environmentalist and will the new toy buying frenzy fizzle in a few years. If the government wants to establish laws they need to study the 20% and fix the obstacles to keep the demand above 50% of the total number of voters or they will be looking for a new job and the EV revolution will stall at a critical point.

Yes there will likely be a point where the number of EVs will exceed the infrastructure available and it will put a damper on the current EV hysteria. It is the classic problem, no one wants to build the infrastructure until the need is there. People will be hesitant to buy an EV without good infrastructure to support it. That's why all this has to be subsidized, which I'm not really a fan of. And of course there is always the potential for a mfg to dampen the EV enthusiasm like GM did to diesels for cars with the Oldsmobile diesel disaster or like they seem to be trying to do now with the spontaneously combusting Bolt.

Was mentioned earlier but we are looking at the transportation issue with a set of hundred year old eyes.
Picture a self driving Uber that you don't have to own, pay for, insure, maintain or charge. Ready to go, summon it from your phone, it arrives charged, clean , clear of snow. You don't need to find a place to park it or charge it or garage it. The next generation will look back at amount of treasure we dedicated to our personal transportation and remark those old coots were crazy !

What some see as liberation from vehicle ownership can also be viewed by others as a threat to the freedom of travel that we enjoy today.

Sure ride sharing will be more efficient, but what happens when the government decides it's time for a lock down and shuts all the ride sharing down? What about natural disasters where huge masses of people are forced to evacuate? Will fleets of ride share vehicles from all over the US descend on the affected area? Will that leave the non-disaster areas short on vehicles? Notice what is happening in the airline industry and with the supply chain today: just in time and having just enough physical equipment is efficient, until there is a disruption and then it's a mess. All these grand ideas need to be thought through very carefully.

China Cements Rare Earths Dominance With New Global Giant

Since currently 70% of EV batteries come from China I guess this is a good thing.

Not good at all. China doesn't give a darn about the workers or the environment. That is why we can't compete in the rare earth segment. We were once the global leader in rare earth production. Iirc we have only one working mine left in the US. This is yet another consequence of your beloved EVs and our thoughtlessness about where our cheap products come from: the toxic lake of sludge The dystopian lake filled by the world’s tech lust

....

Will you agree to stop making misleading posts in this thread?

I'm just an old man that has learned how to read patterns and it is clear to me and most of the world that we are moving to EV'S come hell or high water and neither you or I can slowdown or stop the EV revolution that had hit critical mass for leaders like Tesla. VW recent commitment to spend $35 billion in the next 5 years to be a serious EV revolution player.

If you're a fanatic for EVs, that's great. But chastising others for making misleading posts, when in post 6664 you claim "The move to EVs as we know in the USA needs no federal or state funds." Seriously?? $7.5 billion for chargers in the federal infrastructure package that passed. "Many existing programs have this as an eligible use and this guidance can expand how many funded entities take advantage of that. This could increase the use for EV charging infrastructure of $41.9 billion in federal grant funding in 15 specific programs." Federal tax credits for purchasing an EV, utilities giving incentives to install chargers, and on and on.

At some point EVs will have to be taxed higher to make up for the lost taxes from ICE vehicles. The electricity used to charge them should be at a higher rate to pay for the utility upgrades their widespread adoption requires. They should pay road tax by miles driven instead of skirting the fuel tax that's supposed to fix our roads. Right now we all pay for the perks for few who own EVs. Currently, and for long into the foreseeable future, EV ownership is and will continue to be subsidized in many ways. To pretend otherwise is very disingenuous and misleading.

Since we don't seem to have a choice in the matter, we should keep our eyes wide open during this governmental push for EVs and try to anticipate all the costs and ramifications across our entire society. Then act to maximize the positives and to minimize the negatives. Let's hope these EVs will actually help in the long run and not just trade one set of problems for a different set, or worse, cause more serious problems than they were meant to solve. Only time will tell on that.

 

[cqaigy2]

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But that is not a charger. It is an EVSE, Electric Vehicle Service Equipment. It is nothing but an ultra safe extension cord. It knows nothing about batteries, only provides AC current to the vehicle. Has GFI, over-current monitoring, and the unusual thing of providing a signal to the vehicle informing it of how much current the vehicle is allowed to draw. Current is not switched on until a connection is made.

People are idiots and if you put a sign on the "charger" stating only 15A is permitted someone will try for 16A and if that works for a few minutes then 17A... The EV obeys what the EVSE offers, no human override. The EV can use less than what is offered if desired.

The point here in L2 (AC) charging the EV is controlling the process. The regulation occurs in the EV. For DC an external "charger" is used. The DC charger informs the EV of what is available then the EV tells the charger what to give it. As the battery charges the EV tells the external DC charger to reduce current.

The original Tesla High Power Wall Connector (note: not "charger") could serve up to 80A at 240VAC. Later models may have been limited to 72A as that is the current maximum new Teslas accept via AC. Just because the WC was designed for high current doesn't mean all are configured to provide that much. Mine is configured to only offer 40A to the vehicle. It is on a 50A circuit.

Yes, technically, the charger is in the vehicle.

 

[Fuddy1952]

But the batteries last longer, and how will the economy of this two vehicles be if the both are in full working order after 10 years?

That's the $64 question, a good one.
I was hoping people will simply put pencil to paper figuring out what's best for them, what makes the most economical sense.
An EV saves money vs gas, but high up front cost makes it less appealing to me.

 

[Agvg]

A VW ID3 is not that more expensive than a ICE VW Golf so probably no point in buying a Golf as the ID3 is much cheaper to own.

 

[Fuddy1952]

A VW ID3 is not that more expensive than a ICE VW Golf so probably no point in buying a Golf as the ID3 is much cheaper to own.

"Come to the United States? Sadly, the VW ID. 3 is not set for United States launch."
Even IF available...$39,000

 

[txdon]

I see you have a need to control politics. I learned 40 years ago I couldn't come up with enough fairy dust to control politics so I gave up promoting fairy tales.
Wrong this is not a political post this is not your web site. If you think I have violated the rules of this site report me to the moderators and let them decide.
Are you wanting to be labeled as a TBN member that is using TBN to promote your complaint about the action of politicians?
Wrong again I have no complaint of the action of politicians it is reported as just their actions.
Txdon you know your last post did not potentially serve the best interest of the 5% of logged in readers to say nothing about the 95% logged in as Guest. I'm not here to serve anyones best interest, I am making observations. If you have a problem with any of my post report it to a moderator and let them decide.

Of the EV owners that went back to an ICEV had bought a $5K used Leaf with a functional range of 33 miles on a nice day?

Apparently you are not one of the 20% I was referring about (cited with source) who did buy a second EV but went back to ICE because of the unexpected charging problems/requirements/disapointments.

Nissan actions have been turning Leaf owners into Tesla owners for years.
I'm happy for them, but don't turn a blind eye to the ones who were no so impressed and did not buy another EV.
I understand you could have limitations like I do when it comes to buying a new EV. I need a new roof, heating and air system and my first shop worse than a new Tesla. The only limitation I personally have is recharging on a trip past the limited range. I love the Tesla's buying system - no dealer hassle and I like that they are being built right down the tollway. I was commenting on a foreseeable problem that has been found out by EV owners that did not take everything in consideration like you or I have.

Will you agree to stop making misleading posts in this thread? I do not make misleading post.

I'm just an old man that has learned how to read patterns and it is clear to me and most of the world that we are moving to EV'S come hell or high water and neither you or I can slowdown or stop the EV revolution that had hit critical mass for leaders like Tesla. VW recent commitment to spend $35 billion in the next 5 years to be a serious EV revolution player. This is a misleading post - you are not that old.