Cheap FEL cylinders keep bending

[kwbretired]

I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.

 

[KWentling]

I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.

I would guess the major reason is cost. There are lots of benefits to that system. Probably not deemed necessary on a lower capacity CUT, utility, or farm tractor application.

 

[ruffdog]

......or just spend more money on better cylinders that have more overlap at full extension?

 

[LD1]

I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.

Yea, lot more to that design. Hing points and linkages. All add to cost.

Is it a better system....sure. Because extending a cylinder has more power than retracting. So they design like that to get more rollback power. Not really something these light CUT's are lacking

 

[wdchyd]

Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.

 

[4570Man]

I have a question. Is there any reason the fel on a tractor can’t be designed like the case 580 backhoe where the cylinders are completely sucked in with the bucket rolled all the wat down. No way to bend cylinder with this design. I tried to load a pic of what I was talking about but don’t know how apparently.

They could be designed as strong as you want but the cost would be so high that nobody would buy them. At the end of the day tractors aren’t construction equipment. They have loaders not dozer arms. A tractor isn’t designed to and won’t take much abuse. If you want to abuse something and it take it you should buy a CTL or a real dozer. People think they paid so much money for their tractors that they should be indestructible. But in reality they cost 1/2 or 1/3 what construction equipment does.

 

[4570Man]

Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.

I’ve never noticed my backhoe to have a work relief port but my skid steer does. But the way the front cylinder is designed on the backhoe it would be nearly impossible to damage. You’d have to do something way outside of intended use like ramming a stump at full speed to have any chance of hurting it.

 

[KWentling]

Case 580’s and other heavy equipment manufacturers use hyd valves with work port reliefs set at different values to protect the cylinders from induced loads. Although they can still bend a hyd rod it’s not as common compared to tractor cylinders with no work port relief.

I believe construction equipment also tends to use induction hardened rods too, at least that's what I saw in my time in a shop that rebuilt cylinders.

 

[wdchyd]

KWentling, also the IHCP comes only in higher tensile strength at 100ksi. Many non hardened is 50k, 75k and 85k.

 

[ptsg]

Friendly remainder to not back drag with your loader....

 

[Sawyer Rob]

IF, I had a dollar for every time I have back dragged with my loader, I'd easily have the money to go buy a NEW farm tractor with a loader on it!

Of course, I'd buy it with another ALO loader on it, as they are built tough enough that back dragging doesn't hurt them.

SR

 

[4570Man]

IF, I had a dollar for every time I have back dragged with my loader, I'd easily have the money to go buy a NEW farm tractor with a loader on it!

Of course, I'd buy it with another ALO loader on it, as they are built tough enough that back dragging doesn't hurt them.

SR

Put your bucket at 90 degrees and pull on a stump and let’s see how it handles it. Now I’m sure you’re going to fire back with you’re not stupid and don’t treat your equipment like that. But that’s how the newbies are tearing up their loader. Nobody ever hurt their loader with the bucket at 45 degrees or less dragging across dirt.

 

[ning]

I was at a farm/estate sale today and got to see a Case 530 linkage up close. View attachment 723440

 

[4570Man]

I was at a farm/estate sale today and got to see a Case 530 linkage up close. View attachment 723440View attachment 723441

Deere is pretty similar. They were both designed with toughness in mind. I was looking at online pictures of cat backhoes and it looks like they had variations of both designs.

 

[ning]

Another interesting thing I found on that Case 530 was the hydraulic cylinder at the base of the loader, near where it's anchored to the frame.

View attachment 723460

 

[LittleBill21]

enjoy

 

[k0ua]

They’ll survive back dragging with the bucket at 45 degrees. It’s when you roll it to 90 degrees that problems happen.

I prefer back dragging with the bucket in float. Yes it takes a few more passes that way, but I have the time, and is much less stressful. I will "rake down" gravel from a pile or something like that where I know I am not going to hit a rock or old tree stump and cause shock, but over ground I do it in float with not much bucket angle. It always just floats over anything I hit. Been doing it since 1991, and I do it a lot. Have never broken anything.

 

[LD1]

Regarding the videos little bill posted in post #176, I found the third video with the kubotas the most interesting.

That was a LONG stump bucket. I gotta wonder why they had it on the smaller tractor though?

But none the less....the operator illustrated good technique. Both tractors actually with regard to back dragging.

The operator on the smaller one with the stump bucket never back dragged with the bucket dumped all the way. And resisted the urge to put that vertical (fully dumped) bucket in the ground to try and wiggle it in. And he made sure it didnt drag the ground when fully dumped.

Look at 3:11 in the video....its easy to see that if one "wanted" to....they could probably very easily bend them cylinder rods

As it sits in this pic....that stump bucket has about 10:1 mechanical advantage over them cylinders. About double what the standard bucket for that tractor would have.

 

[KWentling]

Another interesting thing I found on that Case 530 was the hydraulic cylinder at the base of the loader, near where it's anchored to the frame.View attachment 723459
View attachment 723460

That may be a form of hydraulic self leveling. It would use the flow generated by the boom movement to supplement or detract from the curl cylinders.

 

[Dmacleo]

I work landscaping with my personal gc2400, company I also work with had gc1710tlb and now uses gc1723 I and others also use.
I also use neighbors gc1725M.
lot of back dragging involved.
very seldom do we get front tires off ground, if we do its only for few (2-4ft) feet just to get the pile dispersed.
we OFTEN will go 3/4 curl down (lip of bucket past the vertical plane so as to actually pull material) and drag back but lip is never on ground and tires not raised.
then we use the float mode gc series has after using non float to disperse.
I prob have 200 + hours (no ****) doing it this way on the gc series (and about 30 hours on an MF1532 but no float mode) with zero cylinder damage.
BUT...I and the others always watch...you can tell when stressing cylinders.