Trespasser.....what would you do?

[dodge man]

Trespassing is trespassing, just because the property isn’t being “guarded” doesn’t give people the right to go on it. I am a land surveyor an I see problems occur when people don’t respect boundaries.

 

[John_Mc]

Oh, and I've found some phone app.... "hunt-Stand" or something like that. So it clearly shows this is private land. (the partnership is the owner) it also gives you the approximate property lines.

Just discovered this program last night.

Was it "OnX Hunt"? That's a good program. I'm not a hunter, but use it all the time. Several real estate agents in my area use it as well. You need to go to the paid version to get the property boundaries. If I recall, a single state runs $30/year.

I also use the Gaia GPS app. You also need the pay version to get property boundary info, but it appears to include most states for a reasonable price.

I've added a bunch of my own info to both apps: the trail networks on my property and surrounding properties, the forest stands from my forest management plan, streams & wetlands, the obstacles we've built on the obstacle course through our woods. You can import and export data to and from the apps, so a lot of the trails I've recorded I exprt into Google Earth where I can do more detailed editing. I make maps for printing out in that program.

Unfortunately for me, it seems the state of Vermont has settled on the Avenza app, so most folks from the departments of Fish & Wildlife as well as from Forest, Parks, & Recreation use it. This also means other professionals who interact with the state are adopting it. I don;t like this app as much: less intuitive to use, and it lacks a desktop version, so editing and viewing data when you get home is more complicated.

 

[lman]

There's a 50 acre tract next to mine. The closest to contact I've had with the landowner was when the power company wanted to bring power in for my neighbor and I, and they asked permission to put a guy wire on their land. The out of state landowner said "There's no reason to put power down that road."
I've owned this place for 20 years and lived here for 18, yet have NEVER seen anybody there. It's just a vacant piece of timberland which they apparently bought as an investment. What harm does it do if I take my shotgun and dog for a walk to see if we can scare up a bird?

Maybe the current owner will sell it to you, so you can legally walk your dog there.

 

[John_Mc]

Hmm, very different from my land with right to roam is the law

I appreciated that when visiting relatives in Sweden and a friend in Norway.

Vermont law is is different than what many are describing in other states: People have the right to roam and the right to hunt, unless the property owner has posted their land. (To be considered legally posted, you have to put up signs at each corner and every 400 feet around the perimeter, and register with the local town clerk. You must renew those signs and registration each year.) However, even when land is not posted, if the landowner asks someone to leave and not return, they are required to do so.

 

[John_Mc]

The deer remains wouldnt bother me. Nature will take care of that.

Unfortunately, my dog will take care of that.

Plus it's just plain inconsiderate. Gut piles repeatedly left in the middle of one of our main trails is one of several reasons we started posting our land.

 

[John_Mc]

Here the right to roam law might be over 1000 years old,as far as i know it was mentioned in laws fro around 1200 but probably much older, whit out it you couldn't travel anywhere in the land.

Most interesting. Around here a government law does not give anybody the right to "roam" on private property. With the ability to "roam" anywhere on private property - like it was public land - property taxes must be very low. This is very close to adverse possession -by the government.

It's not "adverse possession, if you never possessed that right in the first place. Unless you are over 1200 years old, it's unlikely you did.

 

[Macinnis]

You're misunderstanding me. If I semi-abandon my property for damn near 30 years like the OP, then hell yes, you can come hunt in my woods, because it harms no one. I will never even know. I would argue that this is in fact normal behavoir because it happens everywhere. all the time. Normal humans are doing this constantly.

If I am active and aware of my property, and have it posted and well marked, then that would be ridiculous. Do you see the distinction?

So you abandon your land for 100 years. I go hunt it without permission, fall out of a tree stand, break my leg. I can sue you to pay for my medical and I will probably win, EVEN THOUGH I WAS TRESPASSING.

This is why you should post your land and keep any trespassers at bay.

 

[deezler]

No. What I see is the fact that it is not my property, I have no permission to be there and in fact am violating the law being there. You realize that we pass laws saying x is illegal because as a society that is behavior we expect people not to engage in right? Its my property. If I want it to sit vacant that is my right. It is not your right to determine some accepable period of time has elapsed that you have not noticed me using it and decide to you use it yourself.

It is MY property, not yours... do you see the distinction?

I sure do. I would not violate your property rights in any way, personally. But it also sounds like you would monitor, control access, and post your property appropriately to prevent any misunderstandings. Which solves this whole problem here.

I just think you should not be so easily offended and surprised that some human wants to enjoy a piece of nature for their minimally impactful pursuits. What if our billionaires bought up 99% of the countries forested timberland, and fenced it all off? Would that be ok? Or would be we joining together to protest and demand our fair access to natural areas. It's kind of just like, basic sharing. We see it all the time on the forum here, the person who brings up a trespassing thread, and is irate that someone dare also exist on the piece of nature they drew lines on a map around, and/or had a bank write a fancy letter explaining how it is now only theirs in perpetuity. Nature doesn't work that way, and a lot of humans don't either.

A lot of human cultures don't view land as a property to be taken, owned and controlled, rather a community asset to be respected and shared. Something to think about.

 

[deezler]

So you abandon your land for 100 years. I go hunt it without permission, fall out of a tree stand, break my leg. I can sue you to pay for my medical and I will probably win, EVEN THOUGH I WAS TRESPASSING.

This is why you should post your land and keep any trespassers at bay.

Well I hope we agree that any court and jury who rules in favor of a trespassers own fault is plainly wrong. When I first got my piece of land, I read up here and other places about the concept of an "attractive nuisance", and how you have liability for it. I had a dirt bike trail cutting through my property, and the thought of a bike crash and lawsuit did cross my mind. I made a log fence across the trail, which someone then chainsawed and tossed aside. Meh, I tried. Wasn't going to lose sleep over it.

Here in the northern states, we have a lot of shared snowmobile and ATV trails that go across and through private property. It works fine, no one sues over their own crashes or problems.

 

[Jstpssng]

ok what is the time limit? 18 years? 17? 3 months? Can I just come wander your property whenever I want?

If I didn’t live here, or if my tract was larger then I wouldn’t have a problem with respectful use. Now please answer my question, which you ignored when quoting me.

 

[Jstpssng]

So you abandon your land for 100 years. I go hunt it without permission, fall out of a tree stand, break my leg. I can sue you to pay for my medical and I will probably win, EVEN THOUGH I WAS TRESPASSING.

This is why you should post your land and keep any trespassers at bay.

As I have pointed out several times on this and other threads, many states have laws protecting the landowner from that scenario.

 

[tradosaurus]

U have to post no trespassing signs.

Why? I wouldn't go on someone's land without permission. It would be like having to put trespassing signs around your house.

 

[deezler]

Why? I wouldn't go on someone's land without permission. It would be like having to put trespassing signs around your house.

Not really. We have vast areas of Michigan that are state forest and national forest interspersed with private properties. You don't post your land, then it's actually rather reasonable to assume that the piece of unfenced, un-posted land you're hiking on is open for public use.

 

[tradosaurus]

I wouldn't approach hunters trespassing on my land unless I was armed. Your wife is "brave", as most women are, because they know someone else will fight their battles they start.
I disagree with the No trespassing signs but they are cheap enough to buy and post. Maybe even No Hunting signs.
It would be interesting if you could be liable for theft if they find out you took their deer stand? I hope not. If you sell it or destroy don't say anything about it to anyone.

 

[Agvg]

How can laws allowing someone to sue the landowner and win if they get hurt walking in nature? Why did things like this end up in the law and not in the trash can where it belongs?

 

[tradosaurus]

Have a guy at work who owns about 15 acres where his house is situated. He wondered if he had to shoot a trespasser if it would be better to dispose of them, Breaking Bad style, instead of reporting it and risking being prosecuted. I told him I hope he never had to find out.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

No. What I see is the fact that it is not my property, I have no permission to be there and in fact am violating the law being there. You realize that we pass laws saying x is illegal because as a society that is behavior we expect people not to engage in right? Its my property. If I want it to sit vacant that is my right. It is not your right to determine some accepable period of time has elapsed that you have not noticed me using it and decide to you use it yourself.

It is MY property, not yours... do you see the distinction?

As others have mentioned, trespass laws vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It's common almost everywhere that your back yard is private, and someone in your back yard is intruding. In the country, things are different. I am interested to see that Vermont, and apparently other states, have a "freedom to wander." I had never heard the term, but I'm familiar with the principle. Years ago, I lived on one side of some hills and my parents lived on the other side. It was 6 miles to their house by road, but only about 2.5 miles by foot over the hill. As long as I was passing through and did no damage, I was free to walk through intervening property. The only time I asked permission was to go through a wheat field instead of around it, because leaving a trail through the crop was unavoidable. The farmer felt the damage I would do on foot was trivial, and gave permission. Understand that "damage" includes things like stretching fence wire to climb through, or leaving a gate unsecured.

One of the advantages of my state's "No Hunting" signs is that it leaves the land open to free passage. If you sign it "No Hunting Or Trespassing," or just "No Trespassing," that notifies people to keep out. If things are different in Indiana, that's an Indiana thing.

 

[Macinnis]

As I have pointed out several times on this and other threads, many states have laws protecting the landowner from that scenario.

I sure wish my state did. I am currently paying additional insurance just to protect me from just such an incident.

it is weird though…it’s like having to pay for “uninsured drivers” thing on your auto insurance when it’s illegal to drive without insurance.

 

[bdhsfz6]

How can laws allowing someone to sue the landowner and win if they get hurt walking in nature? Why did things like this end up in the law and not in the trash can where it belongs?

We are a country full of lawyers.

 

[MossRoad]

Maybe the current owner will sell it to you, so you can legally walk your dog there.

He doesn't have to. Maine is a right to roam state.