Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Fuddy1952]

The Lucid Air (Dream edition) has been tested and given a range estimate of 520 miles, and has a price tag of $169,000. Reservations for that one are also sold out.

No lack of people with more money than brains, it would seem.

Yes. Talking to wife about a vacation now. Suppose we had a Lucid Air. We arrive at our destination. Now what? It needs charging. Will motel we stay allow overnight charging?
I don't think so...so we have to go to motel we don't like to charge the stupid car (?!?)
Then full charge returning home hoping it makes it. Otherwise sit somewhere (truckstop?) wait a couple hours to recharge enough to get home.
Phooey!
A 100-200 mile range is plenty for commute, run to grocery store, etc.
Explain why I'm wrong?

 

[Fuddy1952]

I saw an article today that claimed we could build a carbon-free electrical grid for 1/3 of the $21 trillion we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last 20 years.

Yes. That powerful grid will certainly beautify America. That $21T sure would have been nice to knock a big chunk off our national debt though.

 

[Cat385B]

Yes. Talking to wife about a vacation now. Suppose we had a Lucid Air. We arrive at our destination. Now what? It needs charging. Will motel we stay allow overnight charging?
I don't think so...so we have to go to motel we don't like to charge the stupid car (?!?)
Then full charge returning home hoping it makes it. Otherwise sit somewhere (truckstop?) wait a couple hours to recharge enough to get home.
Phooey!
A 100-200 mile range is plenty for commute, run to grocery store, etc.
Explain why I'm wrong?

The only thing wrong there is the charge time at the truck stop. The recharge time is faster than you could eat the noon special and have a slice of pie. Most new EV’s have a 15-30 minute recharge time on a DC fast charger.
With a 500 mile range, you could go, stay overnight, and drive back without charging at all.

 

[Cat385B]

If you need to rely on charging other than at home, then an bev is not for you. 95% + of new vehicles sold in the US are gas or diesel. Lots of choices.

 

[MossRoad]

Indiana is loaded with fast chargers.... hmmm... maybe not.

 

[3930dave]

I have said the same thing in the past. Your well thought out albeit different viewpoint is also an example of what keeps this thread alive.

Thanks J.

Plenty of sharp people hang out here..... on a good day, sometimes I even keep up !

I have an interest in a wide range of technologies, so these type of threads are a natural hangout space....

In a past life, one of the things I had to be good at was communicating a wide range of concepts to a pretty diverse audience.... when the stars align with my keyboard, I can even knock some rust off old tools on here.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Fuddy1952]

The only thing wrong there is the charge time at the truck stop. The recharge time is faster than you could eat the noon special and have a slice of pie. Most new EV’s have a 15-30 minute recharge time on a DC fast charger.
With a 500 mile range, you could go, stay overnight, and drive back without charging at all.

I'm sorry...I don't mean to insult anyone.
Now...follow my logic here (you will need paper, pencil, calculator).
Assume we want to go from home (S.Centl Va) to Paradise Pennsylvania. That's 340 miles each way. As you can see the closest charging station is in Lancaster. Behind Sheetz. We go by there on Rt. 30, but we do not eat at Sheetz or truck stops! Ever!
Picture is screenshot just now , EV charging stations.
So 500 mile range less 340 = 160 miles. Since our mini vacation will be staying a week, driving the area, time to charge.
So here we sit at a Sheetz for 20 minutes.
Now the fun...do the math: The EV recharge cost works out to $0.088/mile.
Now, gas at $2.98/gal, 35 mph, 15 gallons gives 525 mile range and costs $0.085/mile.
So we stay a week, EV gets low...uh oh...back to Lancaster but we're headed opposite direction.

"With a 500 mile range, you could go, stay overnight, and drive back without charging at all."

Really?!? What kind of vacation is that? I've used 340m of the 500 just getting there!!!

This is at home installation:
"The cost of a single port EVSE unit ranges from $300-$1,500 for Level 1, $400-$6,500 for Level 2, and $10,000-$40,000 for DC fast charging. Installation costs vary greatly from site to site with a ballpark cost range of $0-$3,000 for Level 1, $600- $12,700 for Level 2, and $4,000-$51,000 for DC fast charging."

Bottom line, home to grocery or other store, plug in Level 1 overnight charger at home I can understand...IF...power company doesn't start putting HV towers everywhere...IF the EV car is cheap, IF batteries are cheap. Otherwise I wouldn't have one.
View attachment 713974
View attachment 713975

 

[Fuddy1952]

Picture

 

[Grumpycat]

Chip makers to carmakers: time to get out of the semiconductor Stone Age | Fortune

Intel, Qualcomm try to wean auto companies from dependence on obsolete technology

fortune.com

OK finally the automotive chip shortage cause becomes clear.

Having been an insider, that is a very one-sided presentation of the facts.

Computer guys do not understand why everyone can not antiquate and abandon old designs for new every 6 months. The article very briefly touched on "safety and validation" as if it was trivial, but to the automaker it is Job One. Ambulance chasing lawyers will play exactly the same kind of games we see politicians and the "Main stream" media play to spin anything any way they want.

For example decades ago the Motorola 6805 microcontroller family was dominant in embedded design. Then one day Motorola decided to die-shrink the family to lower costs and power consumption, but didn't tell anyone until after the complaints started. It was still pin-compatible and identical in software, but the transistors were smaller. RFI emitted was different. The susceptibility to RFI was different. A design which was dead reliable controlling the spark igniter for a gas furnace crashed its firmware every time it tried to light the fire.

Atmel's AVR family point blank states they will never change the silicon without changing the part number. Nobody has used the 6805 for a new design in 25 years.

In DoD applications we had to pay out the nose for generic Windows computers from vendors who were contractually required to provide spare parts and new machines for 10 years. They did so by warehousing many spares.

 

[Grumpycat]

I'm sorry...I don't mean to insult anyone.
Now...follow my logic here (you will need paper, pencil, calculator).
Assume we want to go from home (S.Centl Va) to Paradise Pennsylvania. That's 340 miles each way. As you can see the closest charging station is in Lancaster. Behind Sheetz. We go by there on Rt. 30, but we do not eat at Sheetz or truck stops! Ever!
Picture is screenshot just now , EV charging stations.
So 500 mile range less 340 = 160 miles. Since our mini vacation will be staying a week, driving the area, time to charge.
So here we sit at a Sheetz for 20 minutes.
Now the fun...do the math: The EV recharge cost works out to $0.088/mile.
Now, gas at $2.98/gal, 35 mph, 15 gallons gives 525 mile range and costs $0.085/mile.
So we stay a week, EV gets low...uh oh...back to Lancaster but we're headed opposite direction.

"With a 500 mile range, you could go, stay overnight, and drive back without charging at all."

Really?!? What kind of vacation is that? I've used 340m of the 500 just getting there!!!

This is at home installation:
"The cost of a single port EVSE unit ranges from $300-$1,500 for Level 1, $400-$6,500 for Level 2, and $10,000-$40,000 for DC fast charging. Installation costs vary greatly from site to site with a ballpark cost range of $0-$3,000 for Level 1, $600- $12,700 for Level 2, and $4,000-$51,000 for DC fast charging."

Bottom line, home to grocery or other store, plug in Level 1 overnight charger at home I can understand...IF...power company doesn't start putting HV towers everywhere...IF the EV car is cheap (Otherwise I wouldn't have one.

Perhaps you are deliberately spinning or have been spun. Nobody but EV haters pretends anyone claimed an EV is ideal for long distance travel. The whole point of L3 high power DC charging stations is to enable long distance travel without which you would have to have (or rent) a 2nd vehicle to make the trip. With L3 chargers on major routes you can take your own vehicle. The one that is so eminently practical around home where you can charge for under 3¢/mile at night while you sleep.

Have said it here many times, needs to be repeated: The Gas Station Model does not work for EVs. The haters keep pretending EVs must have gas stations to ever be a viable solution to anything.

Tesla does not build Superchargers so you can have gas stations. Tesla builds Superchargers so you can drive to distant cities. They also do it because it is good advertising. Those who do not know (yet) that EVs do not need gas stations see Superchargers and think they are covered.

Recently Tesla signed a lease with the city's State Capitalism Redevelopment Project for 12 parking spaces to install Superchargers. The notion is having a Supercharger at a tourist destination will bring Tesla owners from distant lands. Birmingham did the same fool thing putting Superchargers in their State Capitalism redevelopment project "Uptown". Its simply the worst Supercharger I've ever used and not just because the Supercharger is in a for-pay parking lot. Nothing near but lots of high priced high rent mediocre restaurants who hold restaurant hours. Need a restroom on a weekday morning? Sorry, you have to go to the hotel nearby.

Decades ago I drove 120 miles each way for a weekend every few months. During which I often thought it would be amazing if I could have enough battery power to drive the distance! Past 7 years I have done it many times with hardly a thought but for the one time I did it round trip on one charge.

You have never priced an L2 EVSE. Expensive hardware is $550 for up to 19kW (240V on 100A circuit, 80A 100% duty cycle). 2 awg 2+1 (EV does not use neutral) Service Entrance wire is $1.50/foot. Circuit breaker is about $50. How much it costs in labor depends on how fancy you want to be.

L1 is a 120V 15A AC outlet. Uses the EVSE which comes in the trunk of your car.

 

[Grumpycat]

TVA gives up construction permit for nuclear plant

Nuclear isn't competing well with solar when it comes to cost and liability.

I drove past Bellefonte yesterday (twice). Bellefonte has been a boondoggle of government incompetence from the start. It was an antiquated design when they started. It is a design of which existing examples should have long since been retired. Same as the Japanese Fukushima Daiichi plant.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Perhaps you are deliberately spinning or have been spun. Nobody but EV haters pretends anyone claimed an EV is ideal for long distance travel. The whole point of L3 high power DC charging stations is to enable long distance travel without which you would have to have (or rent) a 2nd vehicle to make the trip. With L3 chargers on major routes you can take your own vehicle. The one that is so eminently practical around home where you can charge for under 3¢/mile at night while you sleep.

Have said it here many times, needs to be repeated: The Gas Station Model does not work for EVs. The haters keep pretending EVs must have gas stations to ever be a viable solution to anything.

Tesla does not build Superchargers so you can have gas stations. Tesla builds Superchargers so you can drive to distant cities. They also do it because it is good advertising. Those who do not know (yet) that EVs do not need gas stations see Superchargers and think they are covered.

Recently Tesla signed a lease with the city's State Capitalism Redevelopment Project for 12 parking spaces to install Superchargers. The notion is having a Supercharger at a tourist destination will bring Tesla owners from distant lands. Birmingham did the same fool thing putting Superchargers in their State Capitalism redevelopment project "Uptown". Its simply the worst Supercharger I've ever used and not just because the Supercharger is in a for-pay parking lot. Nothing near but lots of high priced high rent mediocre restaurants who hold restaurant hours. Need a restroom on a weekday morning? Sorry, you have to go to the hotel nearby.

Decades ago I drove 120 miles each way for a weekend every few months. During which I often thought it would be amazing if I could have enough battery power to drive the distance! Past 7 years I have done it many times with hardly a thought but for the one time I did it round trip on one charge.

You have never priced an L2 EVSE. Expensive hardware is $550 for up to 19kW (240V on 100A circuit, 80A 100% duty cycle). 2 awg 2+1 (EV does not use neutral) Service Entrance wire is $1.50/foot. Circuit breaker is about $50. How much it costs in labor depends on how fancy you want to be.

L1 is a 120V 15A AC outlet. Uses the EVSE which comes in the trunk of your car.

I don't understand what spinning/spun means (never heard term). I was quoting cat385 "With a 500 mile range, you could go, stay overnight, and drive back without charging at all." which isn't true for vacation.
I'll stick with our ice vehicles for now. They're not practical for anything but redundant short range trips...but only if new car/truck price comes WAY down, batteries have a good warranty.

 

[Grumpycat]

I remember taking note in a Car Craft article many years ago, how they worked over a v8 out of a police vehicle. Rodders and machinists will know what I'm talking about (I just can't remember the term for the process).... what was being addressed was the issue of thermal cycles on the block - big city patrol vehicles spent most of their life running, 3 shifts till retired.... so compared to private vehicles, the cop-block never cooled down....

Decades ago the preferred NASCAR engine block was a 60,000 mile school bus engine which has been repeatedly heat cycled and stress relieved in school bus service.

Way back in ancient times Packard used to cast engine blocks and dump them in a field beside the plant. Would let them sit out in Indiana winter before being hauled inside next spring for machining and assembly. They wanted free heat/freeze cycles to stress relieve the casting.

Until recharge times approach gasoline fill times, extra (non down-for repair) units will be needed, above the ICE # on patrol.

Not at all. Asked a retired Sheriff's Deputy friend how much did he drive on an average day? He said the longest day was 120 miles serving summons papers. Otherwise 8-10 hour shift running the heater or air conditioner. This is well within the capabilities of a Tesla model 3 Long Range.

 

[Grumpycat]

Yes. Talking to wife about a vacation now. Suppose we had a Lucid Air. We arrive at our destination. Now what? It needs charging. Will motel we stay allow overnight charging?
I don't think so...so we have to go to motel we don't like to charge the stupid car (?!?)
Then full charge returning home hoping it makes it. Otherwise sit somewhere (truckstop?) wait a couple hours to recharge enough to get home.
Phooey!
A 100-200 mile range is plenty for commute, run to grocery store, etc.
Explain why I'm wrong?

Nobody "wait(s) a couple hours to recharge enough to get home." Making/repeating unfounded claims such as that is what is known as "spin". Honest data on Supercharging:

Supercharger Support

Learn more about Tesla Superchargers, including best practices, charging rates, payment methods and locating a Supercharger when you're on the road.

www.tesla.com

A Model 3 can "Recharge up to 175 mi in 15 minutes at Supercharger locations" Model 3 | Tesla

The latest Superchargers are capable of up to 250kW rates per charging bay.

 

[fatjay]

As great as EV's may be, it's completely pointless. We don't produce enough electricity in the US for widespread electrical vehicle usage. Brownouts and blackouts are becoming more and more frequent. The US produces 70% of the electricity we use, and imports the rest. We're shutting down nuclear plants and not replacing them at an alarming rate. "Oh but the solar!" except solar is all but useless half the country. And the solar that is useful produces at the exact opposite time that people would charge their cars, overnight. Either people need to get over their stigma of nuclear plants, or they need to get over EV erections.

 

[Fuddy1952]

As great as EV's may be, it's completely pointless. We don't produce enough electricity in the US for widespread electrical vehicle usage. Brownouts and blackouts are becoming more and more frequent. The US produces 70% of the electricity we use, and imports the rest. We're shutting down nuclear plants and not replacing them at an alarming rate. "Oh but the solar!" except solar is all but useless half the country. And the solar that is useful produces at the exact opposite time that people would charge their cars, overnight. Either people need to get over their stigma of nuclear plants, or they need to get over EV erections.

Well...I guess fatjay & I are in the "spin" club!
EV lovers, spend lots of money on one, good luck finding a charging station, paying a lot for batteries, and then enjoy looking at HV grid towers everywhere knowing you're saving the environment from pollution .

 

[Gale Hawkins]

As great as EV's may be, it's completely pointless. We don't produce enough electricity in the US for widespread electrical vehicle usage. Brownouts and blackouts are becoming more and more frequent. The US produces 70% of the electricity we use, and imports the rest. We're shutting down nuclear plants and not replacing them at an alarming rate. "Oh but the solar!" except solar is all but useless half the country. And the solar that is useful produces at the exact opposite time that people would charge their cars, overnight. Either people need to get over their stigma of nuclear plants, or they need to get over EV erections.

I know how you feel because I once felt that way before I found out reality made me totally wrong.

 

[fatjay]

Well...I guess fatjay & I are in the "spin" club!
EV lovers, spend lots of money on one, good luck finding a charging station, paying a lot for batteries, and then enjoy looking at HV grid towers everywhere knowing you're saving the environment from pollution .

They're just polluting elsewhere. Like china. Mining for these materials to create all that. China has listed itself as a "developing nation" so it's exempt from the new co2 emissions regulations. They ship the materials around the world multiple times in their creation process, then your EV's are charged by electricity produced by burning fossil fuels.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

They're just polluting elsewhere. Like china. Mining for these materials to create all that. China has listed itself as a "developing nation" so it's exempt from the new co2 emissions regulations. They ship the materials around the world multiple times in their creation process, then your EV's are charged by electricity produced by burning fossil fuels.

EVs polluting doesn't change the fact that new ICE cars are existing the stage.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

As great as EV's may be, it's completely pointless. We don't produce enough electricity in the US for widespread electrical vehicle usage. Brownouts and blackouts are becoming more and more frequent. The US produces 70% of the electricity we use, and imports the rest. We're shutting down nuclear plants and not replacing them at an alarming rate. "Oh but the solar!" except solar is all but useless half the country. And the solar that is useful produces at the exact opposite time that people would charge their cars, overnight. Either people need to get over their stigma of nuclear plants, or they need to get over EV erections.

120 years ago they were saying cars were not practical because all our roads were dirt. Nowadays they are saying the age of the automobile is over because ICE vehicles are too expensive to manufacture. After WWII, Detroit ran the economy of the United States. This year, General Motors shut down half the vehicle production in the United States, and the stock market didn't even blink.

Change is always incremental. The Cash For Clunkers program sent a lot of old tuna clippers to that big crusher in the sky. My 20 mpg pickup used to be outstanding mileage, now it is way below average. Switching to energy efficient light bulbs eliminated the need for a dozen gigawatt power plants. We're closing coal generation facilities because windmills are cheaper and less polluting. If we need more electricity we will find a way to make it, just like we found a way to make paved roads. But hey, if you want to invest in buggy whips, have at it.