Dpf, regen cycles, fuel additives....

[spruce Deere]

Been awhile since I have been on tbn. Since joining tbn, some new "things" have become prevalent on compact tractors...
We recently purchased a brand new LS XR3140H. With a cab, heat, a/c, dpf other bells and whistles its QUITE a jump from the ever dependable JD 790.
Between plowing snow and other chores being done with the LS it has acquired 15 hours already, we got it home early December. I decided to do an early regeneration cycle for the dpf or 'diesel particulate filter' with some idle and none of the work was really done at higher rpm's but at full engine temp. On this LS tractor you can 'force' a Regeneration before it automatically does. It was about twenty minutes.
Researching the dpf regeneration topic, there is fuel additives that supposed to cut down and help with regeneration cycles and keep the dpf cleaner longer.
I have read in the owners manual on dpf cycling but would like some members input on 'diesel particulate filter' equipped tractors

 

[jaydee325]

If the owners manual does not recommend any additives, I don't use them. IMHO, they are just marketing hyperbole.

Use fresh, dry, seasonal fuel for your location and you will be fine. And, get the RPMs up no mater what your are doing to maximize heat in the exhaust. I believe this is recommended in many owners manuals.

 

[RSR]

I have an LS XR4145. I can't speak to the additives, but I can speak to idle speed. You need to make sure it runs hot, continuously. This means no idle, other than for warm up and cool down.

After 1-2 minute warm up for the turbo, I bring mine up to 1500 RPM until the engine comes up to temp. After that, I run it at 2,000 RPM, MINIMUM.

My first 50'ish hours were largely spent snow blowing at PTO RPM under load. My tractor went into its first regen at 50.0 hours. Apparently, this is a backup software setting where if it hasn't sensed the need to regenerate by 50 hours it will force it to. As I entered into Spring, I ran my tractor doing land tasks and loader work keeping it at 1,500 RPM (that is what my dealer recommended). My second regen after running at 1,500 RPM was 30 hours later.

After that, I started running at 2,000+ RPM for everything. It's now been 40 hours since my last regen. I figure my next one will be soon, or forced at 50 hours.

So, anecdotally, there is a noticeable difference in time between regen running at 1,500 vs 2,000 RPM.

Take home message: Don't run at idle. Higher RPMs are better.

 

[JCoastie]

I have a LS MT240, and went through an auto regen 2 days ago. I've read things from additive companies talking about a cleaner burn, but really wonder if there is an actual DPF sensor that monitors things, or if the CPU just tracks hours/RPM,etc and decides to run a regen regardless of actual measured/observed/accumulated particulate matter.
I just purchased some of this additive Amazon.com: Howes 1?3?67 Meaner Power Diesel Kleaner with IDX4 Detergent- 1 Quart: Automotive for my next full ups, I've never used it before, so have no opinion on it. I'm in a warmer climate, so didn't use their lauded winter product. Lots of good reviews all over the web for their winter version, but again, I've never used it. Amazon.com: Howes 1?3?6? 'Diesel Treat' Diesel Conditioner and Anti-Gel - 64 oz.: Automotive
Mine idles probably a lot more than it should. Not idling while IT is working, but idling while it's waiting for me to work before it gets used. I tent to be on/off it a lot, so it idles while I'm off it.

 

[jeff9366]

There are fuel additives that are supposed to help with regeneration cycles and keep the dpf cleaner longer.

I would be hesitant about using any fuel additive not recommended in your Owner's Manual.

The DPF is very hot during regeneration. Hard for me to imagine how any liquid would not be vaporized immediately and pass out with other exhaust.

Regeneration itself is high heat converting oily soot to ash. Not very complicated.

I have an Kubota L3560, put into service in January 2013, with 1,800 engine hours. So far L3560 has never failed to go through a complete regeneration, sometimes automatically, more often parked, without problems. While I do not log regenerations, there have been about thirty +/-. My regenerations last 16 minutes each, with little variation. Regenerations occur once every 60 engine hours with only minor variations between intervals.

Use fresh, dry, seasonal fuel for your location and you will be fine.

YES.

 

[rScotty]

Regeneration itself is high heat converting oily soot to ash. Not very complicated.

YES.

I've been wanting to ask this, and apologize if it sounds simplistic. But if that is all regeneration does, where's the advantage? Is oily soot less of a hazard than ash? I'd have thought the hazard would be greater when putting dry, finely-powdered ash into the air more than just dealing with the oily soot.

rScotty

 

[spruce Deere]

Thanks for the responses fellas! I do think higher rpm's are key to clean exhaust along with an engine at operating temp. kinda why i did an early regen. As far as the automatic regeneration on my LS is triggered it's exhaust pack pressure, I believe, that is monitored till a certain pressure is reached. 50-ish hours seems to be the first auto regeneration in LS tractors.
Right now the only fuel additive in my fuel is power service white bottle. I run it year round as it is suppose to increase the cetane (sp)?, Lubrication qualities of fuel and no jelling. Not to mention the 790 has always starts smoother with ps in the fuel.

 

[i7win7]

If DPF filters and regens are a way to trap air pollution in the big cities and contaminate "fly-over country" then why do tractors that live and work in "fly-over country" need it? :thumbdown:

 

[spruce Deere]

If DPF filters and regens are a way to trap air pollution in the big cities and contaminate "fly-over country" then why do tractors that live and work in "fly-over country" need it?

I feel ya...it just seems pointless for off-road equipment emissions crap.

 

[fried1765]

If DPF filters and regens are a way to trap air pollution in the big cities and contaminate "fly-over country" then why do tractors that live and work in "fly-over country" need it?

I feel ya...it just seems pointless for off-road equipment emissions crap.

And.......that is EXACTLY why I will NEVER own ANY off road equipment with that emissions crap!

 

[rademamj1]

I've been wanting to ask this, and apologize if it sounds simplistic. But if that is all regeneration does, where's the advantage? Is oily soot less of a hazard than ash? I'd have thought the hazard would be greater when putting dry, finely-powdered ash into the air more than just dealing with the oily soot.

rScotty

Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

 

[buck12]

Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

I wonder if the plastic industry may have contributed a dollar or two to that legislation.

 

[spruce Deere]

Same fate of all the empty def fluid containers....

 

[Blue Mule]

Scotty, I sure do agree with you regarding regeneration and particulate matter size, and the environmentalists clearly and fundamentally made a critical error in going to Tier4 emmissions for diesel engines.

Soot sized particles are potentially dangerous, but converting them to an submicron sized ash particle makes them breathable and can be collected in the lungs over time, and therefore are more dangerous to humans. Basically, the DPF becomes nothing more than a carbon particle reducer.

It's not the first time environmentalists have made terrible mistakes. In 1975 the US moved away from paper bags in stores to "environmentally friendly" plastic bags, usually mandated by state laws that were encouraged by environmental support groups wanting to preserve forest and timberlands. 40 years later, we all know how that environmental decesion has turn out. The worlds oceans are now awash in plastic and we are far worse off than ever before.

Not to mention the additional fuel consumed by Tier IV engines, which is bad for the environment. Or the additional precious metals and materials used to construct the hardware, which affects the environment. Or the added cost passed on to the farmer for future repairs, which affects his bottom line and may or may not get passed along to the end user. We could go on forever.

If you really wanted to get down in the weeds, you could even look at the additional heat generated by machines using regeneration strategies and the effect that the collection of those devices all over the world has on tropospheric heat content. It's sort of like the "butterfly effect" that my meteorology professors talked about a lot in college. Everything we do has an effect on the world around us.

But, the only thing the EPA sees is politics and so rational decision making goes right out the door. And we, the end user, end up suffering for it.

It's a shame because I just bought a new compact tractor and I bought less horsepower than I really wanted or needed just to avoid emissions equipment. If it weren't for DPF/EGR I would have gone 35-40 horsepower without even thinking about it and the tractor would have worked for my needs much better. Sigh...

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

Or you could just buy one that can have the filter taken off (or "falls off" accidentally) with no computer gizmos to worry about, and be happy...

:mischievous:

 

[fried1765]

Or you could just buy one that can have the filter taken off (or "falls off" accidentally) with no computer gizmos to worry about, and be happy...

:mischievous:

Though I have absolutely no plans to ever buy another tractor, you have very clearly identified why I would be looking at Branson first!

 

[RSR]

I've been wanting to ask this, and apologize if it sounds simplistic. But if that is all regeneration does, where's the advantage? Is oily soot less of a hazard than ash? I'd have thought the hazard would be greater when putting dry, finely-powdered ash into the air more than just dealing with the oily soot.

rScotty

It's a little more complicated than that. The idea behind the filter and regeneration is not to just turn oily soot into ash. It's actually an oxidation process. That is, when burned hot enough, a chemical process takes place where by the carbon byproduct of the combustion combines with Oxygen to from CO2. (Carbon dioxide). So, you are converting solid particle to a gas.

The problem is that this process takes some time to occur. As temperature increases, this oxidation occurs quicker. So during normal combustion the exhaust temperature is not sufficiently high for the carbon to be oxidized into CO2 before it exits nto the atmosphere.

The idea behind a carbon filter is trap the carbon before it enters the atmosphere. Then, during regen the temp goes MUCH higher allowing oxidation of the trapped carbon to occur.

Because oxidation rate increases significantly with temperature, this is why running your engine at high RPM/Temps is advantageous. The oxidation of carbon is much more likely to occur before it reaches the filter, and starts plugging it.

I think there are also other chemical benefits to it with regards to some of the other chemical byproducts of diesel combustion (e.g., NOX) but I'm not sure on that.

 

[spruce Deere]

Not to mention the additional fuel consumed by Tier IV engines, which is bad for the environment. Or the additional precious metals and materials used to construct the hardware, which affects the environment. Or the added cost passed on to the farmer for future repairs, which affects his bottom line and may or may not get passed along to the end user. We could go on forever.

If you really wanted to get down in the weeds, you could even look at the additional heat generated by machines using regeneration strategies and the effect that the collection of those devices all over the world has on tropospheric heat content. It's sort of like the "butterfly effect" that my meteorology professors talked about a lot in college. Everything we do has an effect on the world around us.

But, the only thing the EPA sees is politics and so rational decision making goes right out the door. And we, the end user, end up suffering for it.

It's a shame because I just bought a new compact tractor and I bought less horsepower than I really wanted or needed just to avoid emissions equipment. If it weren't for DPF/EGR I would have gone 35-40 horsepower without even thinking about it and the tractor would have worked for my needs much better. Sigh...

Well said blue. Its all in 'where do you want the pollution spectrum'...Fuel consumption? procurement of raw materials? EPA and All the political energy applied? To me, it is all a pointless battle. I believe the EPA 95% of the time is just making sure they still have a job, with political power.

Look up the pollution created by the complete manufacturing process of the future battery powered vehicles, or battery powered anything with wheels....

Far as I am concerned, its all the major cities of the globe that are the major polluters, not the on and off road equipment operation, regardless of hp rating.

 

[mini14]

Where does the rubber worn off tyres go? | Questions | Naked Scientists

 

[spruce Deere]

Ummm, what is tyres????

If they contain rubber would it be like a tire