Submersible well pump health?

/ Submersible well pump health? #21  
Bring it on. I'm semi retired now and have a little more time to work on it.

Kinda depends on your particular situation.
We spend long periods away from our Florida home, and though I shut the electric power to the water heater off, I do not shut off the water supply to anything but the toilets.
Our spec house contractor water heater was 15 years old, and I was 75.
Neighbor water heaters were all failing.
I decided it was time to be proactive.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #22  
Sure I make and sell Cycle Stop Valves. But I started with VFD's over 30 years ago. VFD's are made for the installer and manufacturer to make a lot of money with, not to last a long time for the customer. There is no way you have seen increased life on motors using VFD's, because no motor has ever lasted 30 years on a VFD. VFD's are specifically designed to be expensive, not last very long, and to shorten the life of pumps and motors. VFD's are planned obsolescence at its finest. My opinion is certainly jaded as I have thousands of customers who switched out an expensive and problematic VFD for a Cycle Stop Valve and write me to say how much better the CSV works than the VFD. Read the reviews of people who have CSV's or you will fall for the hype of the VFD and be stuck with a Tar Baby that needs repairing and/or replacing often. Pump guys love VFD's because they make so much more money with them. But just think about where all that money comes from? :eek:
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #23  
Really, then i guess our associations well using VFD , all installed over 27 years ago and still working must be a fluke. Im not sure why you think slowly ramping up a motor is a bad thing.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #24  
Slowly ramping up a submersible motor is a bad thing. The Kingsbury thrust bearing needs at least 50% speed to have the film of water needed for lubrication between the pads and plate. Slowing ramping up the speed drags off the thrust bearing pads as they have no lubrication until it is up to 50% speed. I would really like to see a picture of a 27 year old VFD or drive that has not been repaired, replaced, or burned up a pump or motor in all that time, as that would be very unusual. Those older drives didn't even have dvdt filters or anything on them, so they were very hard on the motors. Usually they tell me the drive is still working, even though it and/or the pump/motor has been replaced several times over the years.

Pump manufacturers would not be pushing VFD's so hard if they really made pumps last longer. That is the opposite of a good thing for a company who makes money from pumps. I didn't come up with this on my own. I was told by several retired engineers for several of the major pump companies that CSV's make pumps last longer and VFD's make more money for the factory, which is why they don't like CSV's and spend millions advertising VFD's.

I can show you pictures of pumps systems I installed with VFD's from 89 to 92. None of them lasted more than 5-10 years, and most only 2-3 years. A VFD system that hasn't been touched in 27 years is very unusual, not the norm. Although those older and larger VFD's like would be used on an "association well" would have had three power packs instead of just one like the newer, smaller, and even shorter lived VFD's that they are producing today.

The smaller home sized VFD's are made to last even less time than the larger industrial versions. Pump, motor, and VFD manufacturing is driven completely by profit, which is exactly the opposite of what is best for the consumer. Anything they can spend that much money advertising is because it is costing the consumer that much more than it should.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #25  
I put a rebuilt Jacuzzi pump 300 feet down 40 years ago and it's still going strong.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #26  
I put a rebuilt Jacuzzi pump 300 feet down 40 years ago and it's still going strong.

Jacuzzi was a good pump. Franklin bought them out and has "redesigned" everything to make it last an average of only 7 years. Pumps are no longer made to last, but rather to make more profit for the manufacturers. The only way to get the most out of any new pump is to limit the cycling and not use a VFD.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #27  
Jacuzzi almost joined the family back in my brothers dating days... her family said when your name is synonymous with the product it has to be good.

As a teen a neighbor was putting in a well and as the pump was being put together I questioned the use of a galvanized pipe nipple with all the brass/bronze...

Was told "Kid, it will out live me."

He was right 7 years later he was gone...

When his son was troubleshooting I mentioned the galvanized pipe nipple and sure enough that is what failed.
 
/ Submersible well pump health?
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Jacuzzi was a good pump. Franklin bought them out and has "redesigned" everything to make it last an average of only 7 years. Pumps are no longer made to last, but rather to make more profit for the manufacturers. The only way to get the most out of any new pump is to limit the cycling and not use a VFD.

So I believe I'll getting one of your valves when the new pump house actually gets built and plumbed for the final time. Are there situations that it doesn't make sense to do so? I was looking on the web for reviews and thoughts on them and ran across a guy who thought the valve created back pressure on the pump and pipes. Is this correct or no?
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #29  
22 years on mine. I did have to replace the motor starter about 10 years ago. Cynically speaking the old pump might be better quality than the new ones. I will replace mine when it stops working not before. From past experience these things fail in the dead of winter at -30oC in a snow storm, while I'm in the shower.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #30  
So I believe I'll getting one of your valves when the new pump house actually gets built and plumbed for the final time. Are there situations that it doesn't make sense to do so? I was looking on the web for reviews and thoughts on them and ran across a guy who thought the valve created back pressure on the pump and pipes. Is this correct or no?

Yes the CSV creates back pressure to make the pump think it is in a deeper well so it pumps less water when you need it to. Contrary to what most people think, back pressure is good for a pump. Back pressure makes the motor draw lower amps and run cooler. Back pressure is how the CSV keeps the pump from cycling on and off, which is really a good thing. Pumps are designed to create pressure, that is just what they do. They need a certain amount of back pressure to keep the impellers from upthrusting. Too little back pressure causes upthrust and is bad for the pump. No pump can build more back pressure than it can stand. Look at the pump curve. The curve shows the pump working with enough back pressure to get it to zero flow. Even zero flow won't hurt a pump for a short time. However, at zero flow the pump will get hot in a few minutes, which isn't good. But the CSV can never completely close and the pump never gets to zero flow. The CSV only closes down to a minimum of 1 GPM, because it takes about 2/10's of a GPM to keep the pump/motor cool. So, the CSV allows five times more than 2/10's of a GPM to make sure the pump stays cool.

It is also rare for a pump to build more pressure than the pipe can handle. However, this is one of the things we check when sizing a CSV. We will look at the maximum pressure your pump can build, and make sure your pipe is rated to handle it. Back pressure from the average size submersible pump is between 100 and 150 PSI, and most pipe is rated for 160 PSI or more.

The take away from all of this is anyone who thinks back pressure is hard on a pump, doesn't have a clue how pumps work. As with a lot of other things in life, people who are completely wrong about what they believe usually show their ignorance by having the loudest mouth in the bunch. :hissyfit:
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #31  
22 years on mine. I did have to replace the motor starter about 10 years ago. Cynically speaking the old pump might be better quality than the new ones. I will replace mine when it stops working not before. From past experience these things fail in the dead of winter at -30oC in a snow storm, while I'm in the shower.

What does a motor starter do? It starts the motor. Why would a motor starter fail? Because it has started the pump too many times. Having to replace a motor starter, pressure switch, check valve, or pressure tank are all just first signs of cycling the pump too much. If you are cycling the pump enough to damage any of these things, it is also damaging the pump/motor. Most 1HP and smaller pumps can survive lots of cycling. Yes you may be up to 22 years so far and it may last 30. But if the number of cycles was reduced, it would last even longer. Cycling is bad for all pumps, yet larger pumps won't survive cycling nearly as long.

Pumps always quit at the worst time. Usually on a Friday evening, maybe Christmas day, any holiday, or when the weather is at its worst. It really has nothing to do with the weather or the time of week, it is the time when everyone is home and using the pump. It doesn't quit while you are at work or school because it is not being used. But when you get home, need water, you are there when you ask the pump to start, and that was the last start it had in it. :muttering:
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #32  
We're not having any apparent issues with the pump. Are there indicators that I can check to determine health of the pump? Like amp draw as an example? Our well is 160' deep and 25 years old. I've no clue if anything had been done with the well itself since. If logic says to replace it, what do I look for to replace it with? I had another thread on the pump house being rebuilt earlier, but it looks like the actual build will be next spring. I thought this may be a good time to ensure the well health.

I read some but not all of the thread but I think the important things to know are well diameter, 3" or 4", pump size and if it's 2 wire or 3 wire and is it hanging on PVC and cable or galvanized piping. My well is 180 feet cased to the bottom with screens at 50, 120 and 180 feet. 4" well. I had a 3 wire, 2 HP, 11 stage pump that went bad due to human error. It was swinging on 2" galvanized. So I had to have a well mane remove it. We replaced it with a 2 wire, 1.5 HP on black PVC with a cable. I can pull this one. If you know these things it's pretty much all you need. Run it until it quits. Oh and one more very important thing is to have a relief valve set higher than system pressure, usually around 100 PSI. In case the pump switch fails on it doesn't burn the pump up and cause expansion. That's a new well.
 
/ Submersible well pump health?
  • Thread Starter
#33  
Yes the CSV creates back pressure to make the pump think it is in a deeper well so it pumps less water when you need it to. Contrary to what most people think, back pressure is good for a pump. Back pressure makes the motor draw lower amps and run cooler. Back pressure is how the CSV keeps the pump from cycling on and off, which is really a good thing. Pumps are designed to create pressure, that is just what they do. They need a certain amount of back pressure to keep the impellers from upthrusting. Too little back pressure causes upthrust and is bad for the pump. No pump can build more back pressure than it can stand. Look at the pump curve. The curve shows the pump working with enough back pressure to get it to zero flow. Even zero flow won't hurt a pump for a short time. However, at zero flow the pump will get hot in a few minutes, which isn't good. But the CSV can never completely close and the pump never gets to zero flow. The CSV only closes down to a minimum of 1 GPM, because it takes about 2/10's of a GPM to keep the pump/motor cool. So, the CSV allows five times more than 2/10's of a GPM to make sure the pump stays cool.

It is also rare for a pump to build more pressure than the pipe can handle. However, this is one of the things we check when sizing a CSV. We will look at the maximum pressure your pump can build, and make sure your pipe is rated to handle it. Back pressure from the average size submersible pump is between 100 and 150 PSI, and most pipe is rated for 160 PSI or more.

The take away from all of this is anyone who thinks back pressure is hard on a pump, doesn't have a clue how pumps work. As with a lot of other things in life, people who are completely wrong about what they believe usually show their ignorance by having the loudest mouth in the bunch. :hissyfit:

Thank you for your info. I know a lot about a few things. Wells, pumps etc. are just a bit out of my wheelhouse. Yet important as a system can be.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #34  
replaced my well pump (about 250 depth) at about twenty years just to be on the safe side. I知 not the original owner of the house, so wasn稚 sure the history. Wasn稚 having any issues, but didn稚 want it failing, say, in the middle of winter with 3 of snow on yhe ground. It痴 like a car battery - worth the peace of mind to replace it; annualized cost is cheap.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #35  
Thank you for your info. I know a lot about a few things. Wells, pumps etc. are just a bit out of my wheelhouse. Yet important as a system can be.

Thank you! There are a lot of little things about installing pumps that are important. The problem is many things about pumps are counter intuitive. I could write a book with all the funny things people think about pumps. Even most pump installers get it wrong. I don't know how many times I have heard someone say, "I couldn't have hurt my pump because I was just using a little bit of water". Using "a little bit of water" is what makes pumps cycle on and off, which is the worst thing you can do to them.

A CSV will let you use a "little bit" of water without hurting the pump. But without a CSV you must always use a lot of water or no water at all, to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. Back pressure is really good for pumps, yet many people think just the opposite. Having more than one check valve causes tremendous water hammer, yet many people think the more check valves the better. A submersible pump in a big body of water like a lake, will get much hotter than when installed in tightly fitting casing like a 3.75" pump in 4" casing. Pumps like to run 24/7/365, resting for short times does not make pumps last longer. I could go on. The number of myth-conceptions about pumps makes it easy for pump manufacturers to push whatever they want to sell on people. Buyer beware! What looks to be the best thing and comes up first on adds is usually the worst thing you can do, as it will end up costing you more in the long run.
 
/ Submersible well pump health?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
I still want to check check the amp draw on the pump, but really I don't have a clue what size pump they installed. I have drilling info, pump output tests- but strangely no pump specs. And then, I was going into this being proactive and replacing the pump- but now I think would the old pump outlast a new and improved one? I'd like to think a well company would look at my well if it was his own.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #37  
I still want to check check the amp draw on the pump, but really I don't have a clue what size pump they installed. I have drilling info, pump output tests- but strangely no pump specs. And then, I was going into this being proactive and replacing the pump- but now I think would the old pump outlast a new and improved one? I'd like to think a well company would look at my well if it was his own.

You can do an amp check and a bucket test. 5 amps is 1/2HP, 7 amps is 3/4HP, 9 amps is 1HP, and so on. Running wide open with a big hydrant or several faucets at the same time keeps the pressure low for the bucket test. If the pump is building pressure and shutting off, you don't have on enough faucets to test the pump. With the pressure staying low like 20-30 PSI, measure in a bucket the gallons per minute. With multiple faucets,measure all of them and add it together. 9 GPM is a 5 GPM series pump. 13 or so is a 7 GPM series pump. 17 GPM give or take is most likely a 10 GPM series pump and so on.

Any horsepower motor can have a 5. 7, 10, 15, 18, 20, 25, 30, or 35 GPM pump end on it. So, it is as important to note the GPM series of the pump as much as the horsepower. A 25-30 GPM pump probably won't even work from a really deep well, where a 5-7 GPM pump will upthrust if not in a deep enough well. Under-sizing a pump won't give you the volume or pressure you need, where over-sizing can cause the pump to cycle on and off too much and destroy itself. There are about forty eleven different sizes of pumps available, because each one needs to be sized for each different application. Then because different applications require different control and installation methods, there are dozens of different ways to install and control pumps.

Very few pump installers understand pumps, much less know how to properly size and install them in different applications. Most just install the same size pumps in the same way their father and grandfather did. Many are just parts swappers, trying different things at your cost until they find something that works. Some of the young ones think they are geniuses about electronics like their computer and cell phone stuff, so they throw the "new technology" like variable speed controls at their customers. I can count on one hand the number of people still alive that know pumps as well as electronics and can make an intelligent decision on what is best for your application.

You would "hope" a well company would look at your well the same as his own, but that is rarely the case. I know many pump installers who love to sell those expensive and short live variable speed pumps to their customers, but have a simple, inexpensive, and long lasting Cycle Stop Valve on their own well pump. That is very telling on its own. Most will just sell you what they make the most money with, or what the pump manufacturers teach them to sell, which is what makes the most money for the pump manufacturers.

There is a very small percentage of pump installers who actually know what they are doing and really care about doing the best thing for their customers. If you happen to find one of these installers, you should pay him double what he ask. The Internet is a wonderful thing. You no longer have to just take the pump man or manufacturers word for it. There are thousands of pages to research to help you weed out all the misinformation and sales hype. Doing what pops up in every add is usually the worst thing for the consumer. Dig down a few links and see what other people have experienced. Many times a homeowner on the Internet that has already been through some of the problems is more knowledgeable about pump systems than the majority of pump installers.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #38  
So; where does one find the single knowledgeable pump installer. Does he work 24/7 with no time off?
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #39  
So; where does one find the single knowledgeable pump installer. Does he work 24/7 with no time off?

In your neck of the woods his name is Egon. Works for free too.
 
/ Submersible well pump health? #40  
So; where does one find the single knowledgeable pump installer. Does he work 24/7 with no time off?

That is a problem. Usually you don't know until it is too late. Asking for references or reading reviews will at least let you know if they are reputable. But they can be very honest and well meaning, yet still not know anything about pumps.

I use a couple of simple questions to do an IQ test for pump knowledge.

Ask, does restricting the flow rate from a pump with a valve make the pump work harder? Does a variable speed or VFD system save energy?

If they answer yes to either of these questions they don't know the basics about how pumps work. Either way homeowners still need to educate themselves about their own pump and well, as there is no one who should care more about your water than you.
 
 
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