JD 5045 E Not starting

[gatornapper]

Tractor like new, just over 400 hrs. I'm an electrical guy and normally solve such problems quickly. But this is unusual.

Solar panel keeping battery charged failed, battery very low.....engine would turn 1 or 2 revs, then battery dead.

Tried jumping from car. No change even tho I brought battery voltage up to 12.6+ volts. All battery connections are good. 13.6 volts from car & still only slow crank, then nothing.

On last attempt to crank, engine started to turn over as before, but this time, I heard something, and then no crank at all.....but still could hear solenoid click in.

Put strong charge on battery for couple hours. Battery fully charged, full voltage to all points on tractor but engine no longer turns over when I try to start it....just a very loud & strong click of starter solenoid.

When have key in start position, voltage at starter solenoid is 12.5 volts - indicating a.) battery is now strong; b.) starter is not getting voltage as starting voltage would be 12 or below when cranking.

Sounds like bad starter solenoid to me. Solenoid activating, but contacts burned or bad.

All fuses are good. Starter relay is good. I have schematic of similar JD starter circuit and have some questions: What is "Bypass Start Relay" and what does it do? Looks like it parallels the Start Relay and can also start the engine? Where is it?

TIA,

Gatornapper
Manakin, VA

 

[Zebrafive]

The bypass start relay is to prevent starting the tractor by "bypassing" at the starter solenoid. The old screwdriver from the battery cable to the "S" terminal trick.
IIRC it prevents the fuel shut off from opening.

Have you "load" tested the battery. My first guess is the battery is bad.

When you say "all battery connections good" did you R&R each end and clean the connections?
I am not sure where the ground connects on this tractor, if not to the engine block, I would change or add a jumper to the block.

 

[beenthere]

Sounds like a bad battery to me.. so agree with the "load" testing before going further with replacing parts.

 

[gatornapper]

Z5 -

Thanks for reply.

Did not R&R connections as I'm getting full voltage under load at all points on tractor away from battery. I'd have voltage drop at remote points under load if battery or connections were bad. R&R'd them maybe a year ago, battery only a couple years old, while not JD, I did get it a the JD dealer.

thanks for explaining Bypass Start Relay - makes sense.

Engine would not crank with 1.) GOOD jump from car pushing out 13.6v, 2.) NOR from Schumacher Jump Box, 3.) NOR from "50A Start Mode" on HD battery charger, with ground on tractor connected NOT to the battery, but to the frame. Never have seen all 3 of those fail even with bad batteries before.

Had many bad batteries in life, I'm 75. Every bad battery showed low voltage when starter engaged. Here no voltage drop at battery - mainly because starter will not engage, starter is not getting voltage.

Why did engine begin to crank for first attempts, when its voltage was low, and now with high/full voltage, only hear solenoid click? Something changed.

I'll R&R all connections, but 99% sure nothing will change.

Battery ground is to frame on same plate as battery, left side, about 4" behind battery, 3" to its left when viewed from rear.

Since starter will not engage, how do I load test the battery?

TIA,

GN

 

[beenthere]

Since starter will not engage, how do I load test the battery?

I would remove it and take it to a battery center..
But there are several methods shown if you google "How to load test a battery".

i.e. with a multimeter
YouTube

Being probably 8 years old, it is suspect.

 

[Zebrafive]

There is a device to load test batteries. It puts a load on the battery (get hot in hurry too) Snap-On sells one.
If not the battery, next I would look at the starter.

 

[gatornapper]

There is a device to load test batteries. It puts a load on the battery (get hot in hurry too) Snap-On sells one.
If not the battery, next I would look at the starter.

Yes, I'm aware of such devices, basically big resistors. Not accessible to me. More tests have narrowed it down for me to starter solenoid (most likely) or starter. Battery is only a couple years old, not 8. I've been wrenching for over 60 years, and that's my conclusion at this point.

Pulling starter assembly does not look easy as on most autos & trucks.....will try to find a Youtube on How To.....easy to see on right side of engine, but partially tucked under cowl.

Thank you gentlemen. I'll keep you posted on what I find.

GN

 

[Robin Veerman]

Solar panel keeping battery charged failed, battery very low.....engine would turn 1 or 2 revs, then battery dead.

If you've been charging the battery with a solar panel but without a Solar Charge Controller, than I'm thinking that the battery has been over-charged and is fried. My 2-cents, Dutchy

 

[gatornapper]

Perhaps, but I don't think so. Battery has been weak starting for last year - and that's why I began using the solar charger. Actually the solar charger never seemed to do much.

I've never had any problem with using solar chargers on other machines with batteries, and solar chargers have kept them strong at all times, for years.

I think the battery was defective because the original battery lasted 8 years with no charger, and the replacement battery I got from my JD dealer became very weak after 1 year. Max time tractor sits without use is about 3 weeks.

Tests yesterday indicate that I indeed have a bad starter - solenoid is delivering normal full voltage to the starter.

GN

Solar panel keeping battery charged failed, battery very low.....engine would turn 1 or 2 revs, then battery dead.

If you've been charging the battery with a solar panel but without a Solar Charge Controller, than I'm thinking that the battery has been over-charged and is fried. My 2-cents, Dutchy

 

[gatornapper]

Ok TbN friends -

Battery is fine, had it checked, R&R'd all connections - no change. Have full voltage to starter, and about a 1v drop across the solenoid contacts......all indicating bad starter. Last check is to jump + lead on starter solenoid to winding lead on starter to see if she cranks - I know it won't start because of the fuel cutoff safety - just want to see if it cranks. If it does, problem is in the solenoid which I can probably rebuild - been there, done that.

As this tractor - as all US tractors under 100HP - is not made here (this one in India), I have no allegiance to JD electrical parts.

Anyone know where I can get a starter for a 5045E at a competitive price instead of $500.00?

TIA,

GN

 

[Tx Jim]

There's a starter listed on Amazon for $107 with free shipping. RE553507

 

[gatornapper]

Jim -

Wow....never woulda thunk I'd find one there - but then again, there is nothing in the world that's NOT on Amazon! I should have known and checked.

Getting it now -

Cannot thank you enough - you just saved me $400.......

GN

There's a starter listed on Amazon for $107 with free shipping. RE553507

 

[gatornapper]

A Mystery.

Guys, felt like I had to update all of you with strange happenings here. Today original starter engaged and started the engine. The question is: why? how could it?

Follow the events. Engine repeatedly would only crank one revolution or so before starter quit, as in low or bad battery. Jump starting, battery-booster box starting, 50 Amp "Start Mode" on a large battery charger - nothing would work as before when battery got low.

I took battery (JD - 2 1/2 years old) for testing: battery good, delivered 630 cold starting amps.

Brought battery home, did complete R&R on all battery connections. Starter would not engage, but starter solenoid would click and engage. Put full charge on battery for several hours, tried again. Same thing.

Pulled end cover off of starter, and with fully charged battery, did a direct jump from 12+ to battery connection on starter to winding on starter. Nothing. A smaller than expected spark. Resistance on starter windings about 2.5 ohms.

As direct jump on starter leads (#4 solid copper wire) with fully charged good battery did nothing, I concluded that starter was bad. Think any good mechanic would agree.

Just for keeping battery in top shape, last night I put a BatteryMinder trickle charger on the battery overnight.

Something crazy in me this morning said, "Try to start the engine." So I did.

Amazingly, the engine TRIED to crank again - maybe one revolution - then starter died again. NOTE: This has not happened for several days. Starter has not engaged at all for several days.

Battery voltage is strong, so I wait a few minutes and try again. This time the starter turns the engine over for 2 or 3 revs before dying. Weird.

I wait another few minutes. Try again. This time the starter turns the engine very slowly - like a bad battery again - but for 4 or 5 revolutions - and the sweet 4-banger diesel starts right up!

My mechanic son (Army mechanic for 5 years, Chevy/Buick dealer mechanic for 3 years, later trained as aviation mechanic) is saying it's a bad starter. He's heard of starters that work intermittently. I, on the other hand, have never heard of a starter working intermittently. They are either good or bad.

Anyone hear heard of a starter that works sometimes, and sometimes doesn't?

New starter arriving Monday, but don't want to install it if I don't have to.

One last possibility: corrosion on the + connection from the battery + wire on the starter. While the tractor is 10 years old (bought it new), the + terminal from the battery on the starter looks new and is totally without any indication of corrosion. But hidden corrosion on that connection would or could explain all that happened. I will R&R that connection tomorrow or Monday before installing new starter.

TIA to all,

GN

 

[super55]

I would definitely check the post connections from the battery to main wires. I had a similar intermittent problem with my JD 4400 a few years ago and just last week had an issue with my boat. Postive terminal had enough good wires to run accessories and such but when it came to cranking it didn't have a good enough connection to carry a large amp carrying load. In fact when I just replaced the terminal on my boat there were only about 15 strands that weren't broken on a 6 ga wire.

 

[gatornapper]

Thanks for the suggestion, please read the whole post. Did complete R&R on battery cables & posts - they are like new. Your suggestion was my initial thought as well. But I had no resistance across the connections, even before R&R'ing them.

BTW, I am both an electrical engineer and Master electrician. One reason this has been so puzzling - normal problems and fixes have not worked here.

GN

I would definitely check the post connections from the battery to main wires. I had a similar intermittent problem with my JD 4400 a few years ago and just last week had an issue with my boat. Postive terminal had enough good wires to run accessories and such but when it came to cranking it didn't have a good enough connection to carry a large amp carrying load. In fact when I just replaced the terminal on my boat there were only about 15 strands that weren't broken on a 6 ga wire.

 

[Zebrafive]

When brushes reach the end of their life/travel, starters will not work. The old trick is to hit with a hammer hard. That sometimes jars the brushes enough to make contact and the starter works, but only for a short time.

Years ago I stopped to help women whos' car would not start/crank. After jumping it with no success, I took a T post that was in the back of my truck and snaked the end to the starter and "rapped" it hard as I could. Then the car started. I told her she needed to have the starter replaced.


So starters are not either good or bad, some can be revived for a few more starts.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

You say you're son is a trained mechanic and he has given you his diagnosis to the problem , go with what he says.

 

[gatornapper]

Z5 -

I had totally forgotten about this, but remember doing this a number of times when I was young on old cars. AND on motorcycles - especially old Harleys.

Kinda doubt that's my problem with only about 410 hours on the tractor, but who knows? Could very well be the case.

If it's just brushes, I can R&R those once the new starter is in - sure not throwing this young one away.

Thanks.

GN

When brushes reach the end of their life/travel, starters will not work. The old trick is to hit with a hammer hard. That sometimes jars the brushes enough to make contact and the starter works, but only for a short time.

Years ago I stopped to help women whos' car would not start/crank. After jumping it with no success, I took a T post that was in the back of my truck and snaked the end to the starter and "rapped" it hard as I could. Then the car started. I told her she needed to have the starter replaced.


So starters are not either good or bad, some can be revived for a few more starts.

 

[gatornapper]

Good idea. When he was really young, like 6, I'd be working on a tractor or truck, and he's say, "Daddy - I know how that works." I'm thinking, no way. He's too young. But he was often correct. A few years later, "Daddy, I know how to fix that." "Ok, son - show me." And he would. I am known as a pretty good mechanic. He's a mechanical genius. 5 years in Army, then got an aviation-related B.S. degree Summa *** Laude.

So it's not unusual for me to bow to his wisdom.

I do feel pretty good though when he gets stumped on something (yes, rare) and I can help him with the solution.

We are a lot alike and love being together - an 80 mile motorcycle ride together on the 4th.

GN

You say you're son is a trained mechanic and he has given you his diagnosis to the problem , go with what he says.

 

[gatornapper]

Lived in Gainesville where my father's family is from.....my uncle was mayor there long ago. Later lived in Orlando, Miami, Naples, born in Miami Beach in WWII........love FLA from Gainesville to Ocala.......

GN