ford 1700 hydraulics

fldoghunter · Apr 23, 2020

sorry for the double post. I posted this in the hydraulics forum with no response. Figured I'd try here.

First let me say that this is my brothers tractor. I borrow it from time to time to mow our (mine and his)hunting property. I'm working on it because I'm more motivated to get it done and I need it in a month.

Last time I went to borrow it, we couldn't get the hydraulics to work. Searching on here gave me the idea to check the filter screen and sure enough, it was clogged. We cleaned it and changed the oil and it seemed to work fine around the house. When I got it to the property, it worked fine when cool, but once it got hot, it didn't work right. When I set it where I wanted it, it would leak down and be scalping. When i tried to pick it up, it wouldn't come up immediately, but it would eventually come up until it wouldn't. I put it on the trIler by jacking the mower up with a come-along.

That was a couple months ago. We changed the oil and checked the screen again (not clogged) and now we cant get it to do anything. Hot or cold, it won't even try. I can pick up the lift arms by hand with no resistance at all.

I did a search here and found a list of things to try and will start trying to figure it out this week. The one thing that the symptoms seem to point to is the lift piston seal, so I figured since it was cheap, I'd go ahead and get one headed this way. With this covid crap, I don't really want to wait to see if that's what I need and not get it in time. The problem is, I can't find exactly what seal it is I need to order. Googling shows lift piston seals, but not for a ford 1700.

Anybody have a link or a part #?

Thanks

kirkawilson · Apr 23, 2020

Messicks shows some seals under the "Hydraulics" folder here; New Holland (17) - 2 CYL COMPACT TRACTOR (1/79-12/82) Parts Diagrams They are also good about advising if you call them.

fldoghunter · Apr 23, 2020

Thank you sir. I'll do that

square1 · Apr 23, 2020

Put the new seal in a pan if hot! (not quite boiling) water to get it on the plunger/ piston. Let it cool before putting the cylinder back on.

JC-jetro · Apr 23, 2020

it is the seal more than likely. I had a complete tutorial with pics on how to do it. unfortunately the picture hosting company started removing my pics as they wanted monthly maintenance fee. Messick's does have the seal but now it is more expensive many years ago when I bought from New Holland dealer that I used to have near by. Boiling water is one way, but I elected to put teh seal in the plastic bag,leave it in the sun while I removed the lift cylinder head. Do oil it liberally and it is a one time shot to put it right. once is in in reverse you cannot take it out without damage. It is a double lipped seal and the lips need to be toward hyd pressure. Let me see if I can dig up some pics,

Jc,

fldoghunter · Apr 24, 2020

Well, it doesn't seem to be the seal. Took all that apart and the seal looked good and the piston is tight in the cylinder. Looked in the hole while I had the cylinder out and the linkage seemed to work as it should. Before i took it all apart, i removed the plug where yall are installing a gauge. When i cranked the tractor, fluid seem to flow fine. Not loads of pressure, but it is a big hole.

Going to see if i can find a gauge locally tomorrow. If not I'll order one. Have a pretty good parts house in town, also a Napa and a Rural King. Also going to re read the links and figure out what else to try.

Will keep yall updated. Thanks.

JC-jetro · Apr 24, 2020

fldoghunter said:
Well, it doesn't seem to be the seal. Took all that apart and the seal looked good and the piston is tight in the cylinder. Looked in the hole while I had the cylinder out and the linkage seemed to work as it should. Before i took it all apart, i removed the plug where yall are installing a gauge. When i cranked the tractor, fluid seem to flow fine. Not loads of pressure, but it is a big hole.

Going to see if i can find a gauge locally tomorrow. If not I'll order one. Have a pretty good parts house in town, also a Napa and a Rural King. Also going to re read the links and figure out what else to try.

Will keep yall updated. Thanks.

Ok , check the check ball, and spring. If it is stuck open by debries it will bypass the fluid back to the diffy just passed the lift cyllinder. The purpose of it is to dump, bleed off the pressure when you have a heaving implement on the 3 point and you are driving in a rough terrain. As you hit a bump the lift piston pressure elevates due to kinematic energy caused by the wight hanging in he back.

JC,

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

Pulled the check ball and spring all looked good and clean. Cranked the tractor with it out and worked the lever while it was running. No fluid came out at all. Went back to the relief valve by where the hydrolic line comes in. Pulled it to make sure I had put it back together right. While I had it out, I cranked the tractor. Fluid gushed out. Prolly spit out a quart to a half gallon before I could get it shut off. Pump seems to be pumping good, granted there was no head pressure.

If I unscrew the plug where you're putting the gauge, crank the tractor and move the lever, shouldn't the rate of flow change if the valve it working correctly? I cranked it before and oil came out, but I didnt work the lever. It seems that should test the valve and eliminate everything but the pump?

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

I pulled the plug where you have a gauge. I cranked the tractor and had it running around 1500 rpm. No fluid coming out no matter how I moved the lever. Ran the rpms all the way up (about 2550) and have flow coming out the hole. It increases when I lift the lever and decreases when I lower it, so the valve is doing something. I expected it to stop when I lowered the lever all the way, but it didn't. I reinstalled the plug and cranked it again. At about 1500 rpms the lift still wouldn't do anything. When i ran it on up and worked the lever, the lift came up pretty quick. Then I lowered it and it went down. Then nothing, same as before. It did go up and down 1 time. Dont know if that's getting somewhere or not.

Going to head to town and try to find a gauge. Not sure if its needed now for diagnostic purposes or not, but would be nice to have if I can ever get this thing fixed.

In my simple mind, it seems to be pointing to the pump. Hope I'm wrong.

JC-jetro · Apr 25, 2020

fldoghunter said:
I pulled the plug where you have a gauge. I cranked the tractor and had it running around 1500 rpm. No fluid coming out no matter how I moved the lever. Ran the rpms all the way up (about 2550) and have flow coming out the hole. It increases when I lift the lever and decreases when I lower it, so the valve is doing something. I expected it to stop when I lowered the lever all the way, but it didn't. I reinstalled the plug and cranked it again. At about 1500 rpms the lift still wouldn't do anything. When i ran it on up and worked the lever, the lift came up pretty quick. Then I lowered it and it went down. Then nothing, same as before. It did go up and down 1 time. Dont know if that's getting somewhere or not.

Going to head to town and try to find a gauge. Not sure if its needed now for diagnostic purposes or not, but would be nice to have if I can ever get this thing fixed.

In my simple mind, it seems to be pointing to the pump. Hope I'm wrong.

all very good observation, nothing stupid here. two things the pump might have lost it's pumping capacity some, pump has an internal relif. it is very little. But majorly I think your spring on the relief is set too stiff since you actually have flow at higher rpm. Guge is good to have to see at max rpm what you get at the guage. That basicallt tell you stiffness and presssure associated by that. Go ahead and back out the adjustment to reduce spring stiffness and see where you are and report back. I will go ahead and post some pump's innards pics FYSA.

JC,

JC-jetro · Apr 25, 2020

Few more pics;

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

Thank you JC

I was in the process of pulling the filter again just to make sure it isn't clogged. I doubt it is. The tractor has only run a total of probably 15 min since we cleaned it, and we washed the housing out with diesel fuel before we reinstalled the filter and put in new oil. I'll go ahead and back off on the relief valve tension, then go look for a gauge.

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

I backed off the adjustment screw on the relief valve, first one full turn then another half a turn. At a turn and a half the tension quit. Still no movement of the arms at any rpm.

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

Good news, kinda...

Got back with the gauge and installed it. Cranked it up to see if it would register anything, and it didn't. Then I went to pull the filter and check it to make sure it wasn't clogged again. When i went to take out the banjo bolt, it wasn't very tight. Neither were the 4 bolts around the filter. I pulled the filter and it was clean. Put it all back together and tightened everything up. Cranked it back up and everything seems to work like it should. The first few cycles were squishy. I could stand on the arms and they would go down, but spring back up. After I got the air out, they wouldn't budge. Had my son (230#) stand on the arms and it would go up and down without a hiccup. Worked at idle, worked at 2500 and everything seems right. We only mow with this tractor and the bush hog is still at brothers house. I'll check it out with the mower tomorrow. I think it might have been sucking air. The bolts really didn't seem that loose, but they sure weren't tight.

I say kinda because the gauge still doesn't move at all. No matter what I do, it stays bottomed out? If i hadn't put a gauge on it i wouldn't know anything. Any ideas there?

JC-jetro · Apr 25, 2020

ok. if you tightening the spring stiffness all the way then the pump will be deadheading and it then should lift the poppet valve to relief the pressures so the pump will not be destroyed. If deadheading does not lift the poppet than I think pump seal are having problem. in mine , the seals were but input shaft seal was sucking air in. Just read your post #8. I own my 1700 for about 15 years. the very first time I cleaned the screen, I opened up the drain at the bottom of diffy and nothing came out, then I made a hook thingy with a stiff wire, shoved it in the whole and there it cam a rat looking glob. further when I opened the screen I made a collection jar and shop vacuumed the bottom of the diffy and sucked out about a gallon of thick pudding like crap. You might have a situation like that too. Pump overhaul is pretty easy , My overhaul kit then about $50 and I hope still available out in the aftermarket. actually I wished I bought a spare pump seal kit and lift cylinder . I wished there was a spot you could have checked the pressure on the discharge side of the before it hit the relief. I also suggest you inspect the suction pipe from banjo at the screen to inlet banjo of the pump. few pic , below on vacuum system. The hole on the handle is to keep the bucket from collapsing. plug the hole by your finger and it suck and let go it releases.

JC-jetro · Apr 25, 2020

after your post # 8, I responded and did not get to see your post #9. That's great, You are gaining on it. I did suggest checking the banjo, it was sucking air. Now if it lift anything, your son is heavy enough.Even if with the tractor off and weight hanging on the back it causes static pressure in the line and the gauge must, I mean must register something. why don't you take the gauge off and run the tractor with the bucket next to the hole to catch the oil. You must have oil coming out since it 3 point is working. Put some air pressure in the gauge to see if if it working. you might have a bad gauge.

JC,

fldoghunter · Apr 25, 2020

That's what I've been thinking. Bad or clogged gauge. I'll check on that tomorrow. Also going to load it up and get the bush hog and try it out.

A little more back story and th reason it was loose.

The last time my brother had removed the filter, the aluminum threads pulled from the filter. A new filter is $159. Before I tried to weld up the hole and redrill and retap (my aluminum welding is so so) I decided to try a lock tite thread repair epoxy. Seems to be working really well, but brother was skittish of torquing the bolts down like they should be.

Sometimes the simplest things are easily overlooked.

I sure do appreciate all your help.

JC-jetro · Apr 25, 2020

fldoghunter said:
That's what I've been thinking. Bad or clogged gauge. I'll check on that tomorrow. Also going to load it up and get the bush hog and try it out.

A little more back story and th reason it was loose.

The last time my brother had removed the filter, the aluminum threads pulled from the filter. A new filter is $159. Before I tried to weld up the hole and redrill and retap (my aluminum welding is so so) I decided to try a lock tite thread repair epoxy. Seems to be working really well, but brother was skittish of torquing the bolts down like they should be.

Sometimes the simplest things are easily overlooked.

I sure do appreciate all your help.

Great, that's why it is always best to break down the problem to smaller bits to not miss the lil details. Glad it was not the pump. Gear pump can take some abuse but not much. Overhaul kit might be difficult to get now but pump replacement as best will be a used one perhaps worse shape than yours and they sure do want a pretty penny for it too. Tractor without 3 point lift is kind of useless too. The screen is of a good quality and mine is 40 years old and till looks good after I clean it. My memory recollect that it was made out of stainless steel. Report back with the gauge, the bourdon tube might have locked up, give it some air pressure and tap the side gently with a rubber mallet to see if comes back to life.

fldoghunter · Apr 26, 2020

Pretty sure it's a bad gauge. Hooked up the bush hog and everything works just like it should. The gauge doesn't read anything at all. There's no gunk in it stopping it up. Couldn't find my blower to put air to it. Don't think it would have mattered. My compressor tops out @ 125 bottomed out on the gauge is around 250.

JC-jetro · Apr 26, 2020

fldoghunter said:
Pretty sure it's a bad gauge. Hooked up the bush hog and everything works just like it should. The gauge doesn't read anything at all. There's no gunk in it stopping it up. Couldn't find my blower to put air to it. Don't think it would have mattered. My compressor tops out @ 125 bottomed out on the gauge is around 250.

awsome, no matter what gauge says or does not your 3 point is working. Glad it was not anything more serious and costly. I picked up my oil filled gauge up to 3000 psi from Northen under $20. Need to give a bit of TLC to the hydrauic from time to time so pump would not get damaged.

JC,