Quality of Electricity Supply....

[3930dave]

Gale had recently started an interesting thread on EVs. I came across this on paper yesterday; it touched on a supply-side issue I'd been thinking about. As this article is mostly NOT about electricity, I didn't want to clutter up Gale's thread with Canadian election tragedies (short story - we may need foreign aid soon ).

BONOKOSKI: World Economic Forum has Trudeau’s Canada going the wrong way | Toronto Sun

Wade down towards the bottom of the article to find these connected points:

"Once in the Top 10 (recently) ... Canada has fallen to 14th place among the 141 countries analyzed by the World Economic Forum."

2 paragraphs later:

"It took second place when it came to electricity access, but 69th when it came to the quality of our electricity's supply."

^ That statement has me intrigued...... with Winter not that far off (more time indoors for me), I'll be researching what I can on this Quality issue. I wouldn't have guessed a podium finish for us, but 69 is way lower than I was expecting.

Many of us don't have access to the right instrumentation to assess this Quality issue with #'s, but given TBNs audience, there may be more distortion analyzers at hand than I think.....

On the ground (pun semi-intended) what most consumers would notice is first brownouts, followed by electronics or other equipment acting strangely and/or failing outright.

Guess we'll include lighting strikes too..... Mother Nature at play there, but the grid has it's work to do to mitigate those effects as well.....

Any Electric Grid Supply, Quality of Power issues at present folks ? Aside from Canada/USA, I'd be very interested in comments from around the world.

This Quality issue is one aspect of "Is the grid ready for large-scale EV use", and is the next level of technical concern after Capacity. Wireless charging esp. is of significant concern in the RF world, for example.

Rgds, D.

 

[RNeumann]

Maybe this example will help- a giant turbine spins at an exact frequency and voltage making very “clean” power. Unfortunately the turbine is propelled or spun by an evil means- coal, gas or nuclear. The push is to add irregular power to the grid in the form of wonderful solar, wind etc. These types of power fluctuate. This causes the “quality” to be lower.

Not to fear- most modern devises can handle a wide range of voltage and frequency.

 

[oosik]

My computer and all peripherals are on an APC power supply unit. I have it set to report out monthly "incidents". The APC system always sends me a message when I'm on standby power. Otherwise - a monthly email report.

Over any twelve month period - I will experience 5 to 6 brown outs and maybe two "real" power outages. None of these situations have ever required that I shut anything down. They typically last only 30 seconds to a minute.

I'm on a power Co-Op. Been on this system for 38 years. It is EXTREMELY well run and meticulously maintained.

This Co-Op receives hydroelectric power from Grand Coulee dam. It's supplemented with solar power.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

It is good to read stories written from a different point of view than my mindset. Canada has always intrigued me.

Western civilizations may be as fried as the world with electric grids. Time will tell.

We read about businesses in some countries using Power Wall like solutions from Tesla and others. Some are dirt cheap non lithium ion based as well.

My goal is to use hydrogen energy from the sun to power our EV's that we will be getting. Tesla is doing this today to fuel some of their Super Chargers.

The storage of solar power is on the way to becoming dirt cheap because size and weight is a not issue for land owners. Solar panels are becoming more efficient all of the time. Charge up the storage during the day and dump it into the EV's the next early morning so the storage batteries are more depleted so they will charge faster from the hydrogen energy heading their way.

Selling back to the grid could make charging EV's, etc FREE long term perhaps but with a steep up front cost. Using the grid from 11 pm to 5 am is cheaper for some people.

In short I see little factor in the state of the grid today and going full bore on EV usage over time. This is new to most of us today but that is changing. Fear of the unknown can be a factor.

In my mind FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real 80% of the time.

 

[BoylermanCT]

Buy a Kill A Watt meter for $20. You plug it in and it will show voltage and hertz among other things on its digital display. I have one at my breaker panel that I use more to monitor my generator but it can monitor the utility as well.

 

[Chris616]

Dave - when I read those quotes my cynic alarm went off, so I dug into that huge report where the numbers came from.

The report defines "Electricity supply quality" as something that has nothing to do with the quality of the power that we see coming into our homes, which is what most people would interpret it as. Here's the definition of "Electricity supply quality" from the report:

"Electric power transmission and distribution losses as a percentage of domestic supply | 2016 estimate. Electric power transmission and distribution losses are losses in transmission between sources of supply and points of distribution and in the distribution to consumers, including pilferage"

As you know, the main contributor to distribution system losses is the length of the transmission lines. Canada generates the majority of its electricity by hydroelectric, which by its very nature requires longer transmission lines than, for example, if the coal powered generating station is located on the outskirts of the city that it supplies.

I'm baffled why the report doesn't name the indicator "Electricity distribution losses" instead of the misleading "Electricity supply quality".

Chris

See page 634:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlobalCompetitivenessReport2019.pdf

 

[3930dave]

Dave - when I read those quotes my cynic alarm went off, so I dug into that huge report where the numbers came from.

The report defines "Electricity supply quality" as something that has nothing to do with the quality of the power that we see coming into our homes, which is what most people would interpret it as. Here's the definition of "Electricity supply quality" from the report:

"Electric power transmission and distribution losses as a percentage of domestic supply | 2016 estimate. Electric power transmission and distribution losses are losses in transmission between sources of supply and points of distribution and in the distribution to consumers, including pilferage"

As you know, the main contributor to distribution system losses is the length of the transmission lines. Canada generates the majority of its electricity by hydroelectric, which by its very nature requires longer transmission lines than, for example, if the coal powered generating station is located on the outskirts of the city that it supplies.

I'm baffled why the report doesn't name the indicator "Electricity distribution losses" instead of the misleading "Electricity supply quality".

Chris

See page 634:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlobalCompetitivenessReport2019.pdf

Thanks Chris...... that was at the top of my list...... find out what "Quality" meant (w/o going totally Zen ) in this context.

I had an interesting chat with an old-tymer who'd been in the Electric Power game a long time, something like 10 years ago. He was decidedly for small-scale distributed power generation, and I tend to agree.

That terminology was poorly chosen for that report/headline, but it does highlight the point - until we can economically scale up high-temperature super-conductors, there are significant line-losses associated with large-scale power distribution.

Thnx, Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

It is good to read stories written from a different point of view than my mindset. Canada has always intrigued me.

Western civilizations may be as fried as the world with electric grids. Time will tell.

We read about businesses in some countries using Power Wall like solutions from Tesla and others. Some are dirt cheap non lithium ion based as well.

My goal is to use hydrogen energy from the sun to power our EV's that we will be getting. Tesla is doing this today to fuel some of their Super Chargers.

The storage of solar power is on the way to becoming dirt cheap because size and weight is a not issue for land owners. Solar panels are becoming more efficient all of the time. Charge up the storage during the day and dump it into the EV's the next early morning so the storage batteries are more depleted so they will charge faster from the hydrogen energy heading their way.

Selling back to the grid could make charging EV's, etc FREE long term perhaps but with a steep up front cost. Using the grid from 11 pm to 5 am is cheaper for some people.

In short I see little factor in the state of the grid today and going full bore on EV usage over time. This is new to most of us today but that is changing. Fear of the unknown can be a factor.

In my mind FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real 80% of the time.

Many things feed into FEAR..... some of that emotional response comes from the associated economic turmoil many sectors are facing.

Today, in many cases, it's quite a bit cheaper to go totally off-grid in rural areas, than pay the line-in costs for grid. Utilities (at least the people responsible for looking over the horizon), have legitimate concerns about their continued relevance and solvency. At the same time, they are being tasked with integrating multiple new energy sources and technologies into what's not traditionally been a Move Fast, Figure Things Out Later culture.

From an engineering standpoint not all of that foot-dragging is a Bad Thing, when it comes to grid reliability. Move Fast and Break Things worked well for Zuck, but it's not what we need utilities doing....

A lot of debates online today get divided into 2 camps, Fanboys and Luddites, when it comes to discussing technology - most of us realize it's not that simple. I do enjoy knocking around (more on that in a bit) the science behind what's coming along in civil manner on TBN here - Interesting Times, and lots to learn and consider for us all. I'm not out there Rolling Coal on Priuses (got a big issue with people doing that today.... it's not 1970, or even 1990 !)..... my thing is understanding Weaknesses and Failure points - all technologies have them. I've always been interested in seeing behind the curtain (How Things Work)...... spent some of my career doing Test Engineering, aka How Does This Thing Fail, and Why - it's often only when you hit a Failure, do you really get to understand whats going on.

The Grid is a bit of a special case IMO. Most people living in First World countries today have zero experience living long term w/o power, and most non-technical folks don't really appreciate how much work it takes to Keep The Lights On.

It's going to be interesting to see where we are in 10 years. Technology as Disruptor...... non-First World countries are worth watching on the Power front - many just skipped over copper and went straight to Cell for phones, in the recent Past.

First World is not immune from problems..... Tesla has that big project going on in Oz, to try and prop up their grid.

Introducing varied and random high-powered loads into grid systems can get complicated fast..... a quick link with examples, but the relevant point is the opening paragraph:

"Total harmonic distortion (THD) is an important aspect in power systems and it should be kept as low as possible. Lower THD in power systems means higher power factor, lower peak currents, and higher efficiency. Low THD is such an important feature in power systems that international standards such as IEC 61000-3-2 set limits on the harmonic currents of various classes of power equipment."

Understanding Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) in Power Systems

That ^ is what I associate Power Quality with, and it is a real issue. May never happen to you, but the reality of moving large EV loads out into electronically dense suburbia complicates things.

Then again, if your over-achieving 18hour workday neigbour pulls in at 1am and wirelessly charges his 20 minute full-charge Porsche a few years from now, you many never know that it stepped on your Wifi for 21.87 minutes

I actually do like electric technology; I reflexively poke holes in all technologies...... thanks for helping me do just that !

Interesting Times Indeed :thumbsup:

Regards, D.

 

[3930dave]

Buy a Kill A Watt meter for $20. You plug it in and it will show voltage and hertz among other things on its digital display. I have one at my breaker panel that I use more to monitor my generator but it can monitor the utility as well.

A great consumer-level product :thumbsup:

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

My computer and all peripherals are on an APC power supply unit. I have it set to report out monthly "incidents". The APC system always sends me a message when I'm on standby power. Otherwise - a monthly email report.

Over any twelve month period - I will experience 5 to 6 brown outs and maybe two "real" power outages. None of these situations have ever required that I shut anything down. They typically last only 30 seconds to a minute.

I'm on a power Co-Op. Been on this system for 38 years. It is EXTREMELY well run and meticulously maintained.

This Co-Op receives hydroelectric power from Grand Coulee dam. It's supplemented with solar power.

Good on-the-ground data.

My old UPS (not online capable) will chirp briefly once in a long while here..... I know enough to realize that there are probably a # of other "non-chirp" events rolling by that I never "hear" about .

That level of reporting is great to have oosik, esp. if you are away from home, and Need To get back to fire up a gen for an extended outage.

I should probably get out a Round 'TuIt and go buy a Refurb data centre UPS - I've modified smaller ones to do the same, but the big ones are pre-wired for large external battery banks....

Another for the project list.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Maybe this example will help- a giant turbine spins at an exact frequency and voltage making very “clean” power. Unfortunately the turbine is propelled or spun by an evil means- coal, gas or nuclear. The push is to add irregular power to the grid in the form of wonderful solar, wind etc. These types of power fluctuate. This causes the “quality” to be lower.

Not to fear- most modern devises can handle a wide range of voltage and frequency.

Good points R. Load-balancing/supply adequacy..... non-trivial tasks that have to be done perfectly.

That seamless power most of us in Can/USA have experienced during our lifetime is easy to take for granted.

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Will I ever go off grid? I doubt it but if I did I am not sure I would want to sell back into the grid. I have a few bad 'jumper cables' memories. I like isolation when it comes to power.

Actually it has been several years since our power was off more than an hour so we are stable but our house is at the end of a three phase grid which is a good thing for quality electricity supply and the first to have power. In the 2009 ice storm we were out of power for 65 hours but a half a mile down the road where the single phase grid starts was off like 2 weeks.

The place where my son moved has 3 phase along the back property line which is a plus in my view for quality of service plus one could put 3 phase in the shop if ever required. Everyone has electric clothes dryers and AC so the grid is strong. I notice loads dim the lights at church that only has a single phase power grid 1/2 mile from my house but not at our place to the same level. The gym area at church has digital lighting and they total go off for a couple seconds when the AC kicks on and it has its own meter base.

 

[ultrarunner]

Title had me thinking of California's predicament of the new norm of "Safety" shutoffs lasting for days

 

[BoylermanCT]

CA’s blackouts are a direct result of holding PG&E accountable for $30B of damage from last years fires. From a Corporate risk vs reward perspective, if you are going to get hammered by a bankruptcy bill if a spark starts a fire, the risk is not worth it. They don’t make $30B in profit in 30 years. They would be idiots to keep delivering power during high risk weather. CA liberals screwed themselves (again).

 

[3930dave]

CA痴 blackouts are a direct result of holding PG&E accountable for $30B of damage from last years fires. From a Corporate risk vs reward perspective, if you are going to get hammered by a bankruptcy bill if a spark starts a fire, the risk is not worth it. They don稚 make $30B in profit in 30 years. They would be idiots to keep delivering power during high risk weather. CA liberals screwed themselves (again).

That was a bad legal precedent, that hopefully doesn't migrate elsewhere.....

Plenty of accidents/fatalities happen with generators too, but if PG&E wants to stay solvent, they probably don't have any choice now.

Rgds, D.

 

[tjkubota93]

Frequency response has been declining for several years. The more green stuff they implement, the worse it gets.

Not as much inertia in the little stuff.

 

[3930dave]

Frequency response has been declining for several years. The more green stuff they implement, the worse it gets.

Not as much inertia in the little stuff.

I appreciate how much inertia big-iron generators have :thumbsup:, but I'm curious about your frequency comment - are you referring to 60.0..... hz accuracy (here), or something else ?

Rgds, D.

 

[tjkubota93]

Yeah 60hz. Say a big generator trips off somewhere. The entire electric system is interconnected. In the past, there was a enough inertia stored in the huge steam generators to make up for the loss and keep the frequency up. Now it takes a hit.

 

[3930dave]

Yeah 60hz. Say a big generator trips off somewhere. The entire electric system is interconnected. In the past, there was a enough inertia stored in the huge steam generators to make up for the loss and keep the frequency up. Now it takes a hit.

Not the same dynamic response to fast stress loads..... got it. Adding many point-source generators can possibly help overall resiliency, but the coordination task is tougher.

Some 50hz measurements a guy in the Netherlands made over time:

Accuracy and stability of the 50 Hz mains frequency

Rgds, D.

 

[CobyRupert]

Not the same dynamic response to fast stress loads..... got it. Adding many point-source generators can possibly help overall resiliency, but the coordination task is tougher.

Some 50hz measurements a guy in the Netherlands made over time:

Accuracy and stability of the 50 Hz mains frequency

Rgds, D.

I don't think you can say it adds resiliency without more details on the "resiliency" of the sources being added.
Without getting bogged down in details, basically at any given moment, the power being generated to the grid has to match the power being consumed by the grid. There is no storage capacity on the grid.
In New York, and most of North America, a capitalistic energy market system and demand pricing (not always at the consumer level) is good in keeping this balance between suppliers and consumers.

But think about how the resiliency is effected if the market has 10,000 electric and solar suppliers that can produce electricity cheaper today than 10 large coal, gas, nukes can. So those 10 shut down. Now you have a grid being supported by 10,000 suppliers who are flicking on-line, off-line, or have variable outputs every time a cloud passes over, or gust of wind dies. This introduces instability without the base load of the traditional large coal, gas, nuke, hydro to stabilize the grid.
It also makes the energy market dependent on accurate wind and sun forecasts.