Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[shooterdon]

I think the electric car business needs the equivalent of the 20 lb propane tank as a battery. Keep a small semi permanent battery built into the car, but have a large battery that is either automatically swapped, or easily user swapped for the main charge. Run the whole bit like the propane tank swap so it is quick and simple. The battery charging is handled by a business and is done offline from the car. No waiting for a battery to charge as a customer. Batteries can get better without being tied to a car.
For the driver, it's just like buying gas.

Totally impractical. I struggle with a large 12V battery...no way I want to deal with a battery swap every day.

Give me a 300 mile range, over night charge to full capacity, and minimal loss in storage over 10 years, and I am on board. No need to haul a trailer, but I need A/C, heat and defrost.

 

[cqaigy2]

Surprising, to me at least, the largish numbers of Teslas in Netherlands.

 

[sd455dan]

I think the electric car business needs the equivalent of the 20 lb propane tank as a battery. Keep a small semi permanent battery built into the car, but have a large battery that is either automatically swapped, or easily user swapped for the main charge. Run the whole bit like the propane tank swap so it is quick and simple. The battery charging is handled by a business and is done offline from the car. No waiting for a battery to charge as a customer. Batteries can get better without being tied to a car.
For the driver, it's just like buying gas.

not sure how successful this has been but

Chinese Nio ES 8 electrics are made to be battery exchanged

Nio ES8 - Battery Swap Station - YouTube

 

[fried1765]

For anyone thatç—´ interested in talking about the politics behind EVs, there are topics over on Friendly Politics. IIRC, this is about the forth attempt to have a non-political discussion about EVs.

That's nice to know!

 

[/pine]

For anyone that痴 interested in talking about the politics behind EVs, there are topics over on Friendly Politics. IIRC, this is about the forth attempt to have a non-political discussion about EVs.

That's pretty funny considering the fact that the worthiness of battery powered vehicles has absolutely nothing to do with politics...unlike like a majority of the O/T threads here... seems like a lot of folks here don't have a clue about the underlying politics of topical subjects...and I don't mean just the ones that obviously rode the short bus...

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Am I the only one here who owns a Tesla?

Tesla currently has 704 Supercharger sites in the USA. Most have 8 or more charging stalls of at least 120 kW each. Some have over 24 charging stalls. Rarely spaced much more than 100 miles apart, adding 100 miles of range to the battery takes about 20 minutes. Battery charge rate slows the last half, so it is faster (and kinder to the battery) not to charge to full.

With 250+ mile range there is little need to charge anywhere but overnight at home but for cross country travel. And that is exactly what the Supercharger is intended. The "gas station" model does not work, and is not needed.

See the map at Supercharger | Tesla

Which model and year do you have?

If going new Tesla would be my choice since they contain the best technology.

 

[Jstpssng]

This is of interest to me. It’s 200 miles to my mother’s house. If I could go down on a charge, plug it in and have it refreshed overnight (I have 220 volt power to my father’s old work shop in my name) it might be worthwhile. Questions I’ve never been able to figure out though; what do headlights and wipers do to the range? In winter you need some type of snow tires, as well as defroster and/or heat. What do they run off? If I get caught in a winter storm and the road gets shut down because somebody went off the road, do I use my energy to run the heater and lights, or freeze my tail off so that I can make it home or to a charging station?

 

[Egon]

It’s sorta the same as running a petro engine till the tank goes empty. No difference really.

 

[drssg]

This is of interest to me. It痴 200 miles to my mother痴 house. If I could go down on a charge, plug it in and have it refreshed overnight (I have 220 volt power to my father痴 old work shop in my name) it might be worthwhile. Questions I致e never been able to figure out though; what do headlights and wipers do to the range? In winter you need some type of snow tires, as well as defroster and/or heat. What do they run off? If I get caught in a winter storm and the road gets shut down because somebody went off the road, do I use my energy to run the heater and lights, or freeze my tail off so that I can make it home or to a charging station?

If it's a super cold day, it might be a stretch to make 200 miles on a charge.

Tesla and other electric car batteries lose 40% of their range in extremely cold weather: AAA - MarketWatch

I suspect there are other sources to give the effect of more intermediate temperatures. I've read that some drivers use the seat warmers to reduce the amount they need to use the heater. The seat warmer is apparently more efficient at keeping you personally warm, with less wasted energy.

 

[Jstpssng]

It’s sorta the same as running a petro engine till the tank goes empty. No difference really.

The difference is that I don't. Generally when the gauge gets to 1/2, I'm looking for a station.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

The difference is that I don't. Generally when the gauge gets to 1/2, I'm looking for a station.

You will be good with an EV if you are looking for a charging station when half of your range is gone. Keep in mind the battery charger is mounted in the car typically near the DC to AC inverter/motor so you will always have it with you. What some call the charger is nothing more than an expense AC power cord that has communication with the car and its charger.

The older Nissan Leafs ship with a 120 AC power cord in the trunk so all you need to do is to find a regular 15 amp 120 volt outlet. Now it may take 12-24 hours to fully charge the battery using 120 volt AC. The first 50% goes relative fast. The 70 to 100% part takes forever just like with a regular 12 volt battery charger does.

Go on the web and look for charging points along the 200 mile drive. Some people list the connection that they offer free. It could be anywhere from a 220 volt 30 amp EV connection point to just a regular 120 outlet on the side of the house, shop, etc. If you know there is a regular EV charging option 10 miles up the road just use the 120 outlet with your charging cord in your trunk to make sure you are good for 20 miles, etc. I know the Ford and Nissan area dealers have free 220 volt connections and I expect that is the case with most dealerships that sell Plug In EV's. The hotels are installing EV chargers and I have been told the local Cracker Barrel is doing the same.

An EV with a range of 200 miles is golden when it comes to finding chargers in many areas. Cars that can handle the fast DC charging options can go from zero to 70 per cent in like 30 minutes and with new technology that will be down to 3-5 minutes in a few years. The more EV's sold today the more chargers that will be installed.

 

[wheelbuilder]

Totally impractical. I struggle with a large 12V battery...no way I want to deal with a battery swap every day.

Give me a 300 mile range, over night charge to full capacity, and minimal loss in storage over 10 years, and I am on board. No need to haul a trailer, but I need A/C, heat and defrost.

I wasn't thinking of a battery you'd have to lift yourself, more like something that laid flat and could be dropped off the bottom of the car, and the smaller battery would propell you over the replacement that could be lifted mechanically. I don't want to lug any current battery that could draw me 200-300 miles either.

 

[4570Man]

Who’s going to pay for all of these swap battery? Any you think all of the manufactures are going to standardize this battery? Nice try.

 

[4570Man]

AOC doesn't think so!

How long would the tailpipe on my diesel truck have to be before I could claim it’s zero emissions?

 

[wheelbuilder]

Who’s going to pay for all of these swap battery? Any you think all of the manufactures are going to standardize this battery? Nice try.

I think a standardized battery would help advance this while keeping manufacturers costs lower. It should also help keep batteries from ending up causing environmental issues. You could run it much like any of the propane swap deals. Payment covers the cost of charging and some towards keeping good batteries in circulation. Users could choose to charge their own batteries, or pay for the convenience of quickly trading out a discharged battery.

 

[JamesHW]

Wheelbuilder, the swappable battery could be more in line of a reserve tank, a battery that could be easily swapped in to get you down the road another 100 miles in addition to your main unsnapped battery and be standardized across makes. Good idea.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Swapping batteries was an idea that has already flopped in a financial sense.

The technology to pull into a charging station and add 300 miles of range in 5 minutes is coming so no one is interested in a swapping solution for a past problem. Battery technology is advancing week by week in the labs. BMW is talking about having a new battery solution by 2024 but not sure if it will make much difference unless they can hang on for another 5 years with the rate of depreciation starting to hit their off lease and trade-in's combined with the fact new car buyers are starting to wait to see would will be the electric car makers going forward. In countries like Norway with new car sales being 40%+ EV's the tipping point has already been crossed and the BMW and MB trade-ins for Tesla's for example must be giving dealers a headache and customers alike when their trade-in is worth much less than they expected.

Elon Musk says why electric cars may have already reached a tipping point | Inverse

"Musk was responding to a CleanTechnica article shared Sunday. The article cites Capital One, a financial firm, which claims that once-strong demand for European luxury brands like Mercedes, Audi, and BMW is evaporating as buyers that used to spring for premium luxury sedans now want a Tesla. Any Tesla.

The high demand sparked a shift in trades. Around 22 percent of Tesla buyers traded in luxury European vehicles, compared to an industry average of 11 percent. Prices are now plummeting, the firm explained, because there are too many used luxury cars compared to demand.

Take the 2018 BMW 320i as an example. Capital One showed that in the first six months of 2019, the car lost almost 20 percent of its value to reach $30,700, an abnormally high speed. A 2016 Mercedes B-Class, which would normally depreciate at a slower rate over that time as it's older, actually depreciated faster to a rate of nearly 30 percent, reaching $13,250.

It's a sentiment perhaps best summed up by Electrek editor Fred Lambert, who told Inverse in July that the market would likely reach a tipping point in 2025. At that moment, it's going to be too hard to justify spending the money on an old gas-powered car......"

 

[Gale Hawkins]

How long would the tailpipe on my diesel truck have to be before I could claim it’s zero emissions?

As long or short as you would like to leave it after your retrofit it with an electric motor out of electric Ford truck headed you way.

Zero Emissions in EV's is only referring to tail pipe emissions which are Zero because there is NO Tail Pipe. If the driver still is farting then the truck has green house emissions.

 

[3930dave]

How long would the tailpipe on my diesel truck have to be before I could claim itç—´ zero emissions?

Guessing you mean something along these lines:

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) ..... over 60% of USA electricity comes from fossil fuels at present.

I can see a faster adoption rate in Western Europe for EVs, for a few reasons. A good friend of mine gets to Germany on business fairly often. One thing he commented on was the excellent passenger-rail networks - notable for our vintage, as much of our passenger-rail services were dismantled here, back when we were pups.

Tied to that ^, he commented that while you could easily live in one city and rail commute to another for work, that's not the way many people chose to roll - much more of Live Near Work mindset than here. Exceptions obviously, anywhere..... some people in Toronto or Vancouver or NYC or ____________ here walk 15 minutes to work, and I'm sure there are long distance commuters in Europe too.... but that general social-proximity mindset across the pond leads into EV use faster.

Long distance..... different story obviously. There is no easy option to replace 5gal cans of extra fuel at the moment. You can get into trouble with Winter or back country travel in any vehicle, but I sincerely hope that people understand the low temperature limitations of their EVs before setting off on a long Winter drive.

I'm glad to see the build-out of the charging networks happening - but, enjoy the Party While It's Going Full Blast.... somewhat further out, the Free Power and Tax Holiday status will end as Petro Taxes dwindle.

Rgds, D.

 

[/pine]

Swapping batteries was an idea that has already flopped in a financial sense.

The technology to pull into a charging station and add 300 miles of range in 5 minutes is coming so no one is interested in a swapping solution for a past problem. Battery technology is advancing week by week in the labs. BMW is talking about having a new battery solution by 2024 but not sure if it will make much difference unless they can hang on for another 5 years with the rate of depreciation starting to hit their off lease and trade-in's combined with the fact new car buyers are starting to wait to see would will be the electric car makers going forward. In countries like Norway with new car sales being 40%+ EV's the tipping point has already been crossed and the BMW and MB trade-ins for Tesla's for example must be giving dealers a headache and customers alike when their trade-in is worth much less than they expected.

Elon Musk says why electric cars may have already reached a tipping point | Inverse

"Musk was responding to a CleanTechnica article shared Sunday. The article cites Capital One, a financial firm, which claims that once-strong demand for European luxury brands like Mercedes, Audi, and BMW is evaporating as buyers that used to spring for premium luxury sedans now want a Tesla. Any Tesla.

The high demand sparked a shift in trades. Around 22 percent of Tesla buyers traded in luxury European vehicles, compared to an industry average of 11 percent. Prices are now plummeting, the firm explained, because there are too many used luxury cars compared to demand.

Take the 2018 BMW 320i as an example. Capital One showed that in the first six months of 2019, the car lost almost 20 percent of its value to reach $30,700, an abnormally high speed. A 2016 Mercedes B-Class, which would normally depreciate at a slower rate over that time as it's older, actually depreciated faster to a rate of nearly 30 percent, reaching $13,250.

It's a sentiment perhaps best summed up by Electrek editor Fred Lambert, who told Inverse in July that the market would likely reach a tipping point in 2025. At that moment, it's going to be too hard to justify spending the money on an old gas-powered car......"

Smart money is saying it's going to be at least 5 years before there is another significant advancement in the technology that will make a difference...

The issue may be in the fact that other energy tech (fuel cell etc.) could surpass battery tech in a similar time frame...