First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!

/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!
  • Thread Starter
#21  
I honestly think this is what happened in this case. There was water in this tractor and I ran it long enough to bust the seal on the rear or front differential. I drove it at the dealership, but not as hard or for as long as I did yesterday. The reason the fluid was in that driveshaft tube is because it heated up and blew a seal. Maybe? Lots of questions. One thing I do know is I am getting a great education here in my Tractor 101 class.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #22  
Doesn't look good. Checked the rear oil sight glass, it is milky white. Front oil filler cap has milky residue in it (couldn't find sight glass at 7 this morning). Let's see what this dealer is made of. I hope and pray he is a man of his word.

I can't advise you about the dealer. Only you are in a position to decide if and how you want to do business with him.

But I can tell you a lot about oil and water mix. I've done all of our mechanical work on trucks and tractors for the last 50 years. And we just went through a flood here five years ago. Water was up to the lower windows on the house. That's about hood level on truck or tractor. The flood happened at midnight. We only had time to move two tractors, plus a camper and car to higher ground. Everything else got submerged.

So I know about tractors and floods the hard way. Water itself won't hurt an old style pre-computer type tractor as long as the electrics dry out before you turn them on. It all depends on how long the water has sat there. And only your dealer knows. Even that emulsion of water and oil probably didn't do any damage if it was only there a month or two. Any longer, and there starts to be corrosion in the bearings inside. So if it hasn't been long and ALL the filters and oils get changed at least TWICE or until no vestige of milky oil remains. And that in particular that the fuel tank is cleaned out. Do all that and then the tractor could be fine. That's really all it takes for a recently submerged machine. A few days of easy mechanical attention plus $500 or so in cheap oil changes. Maybe twice that $$.
That's a great opportunity for a poorer person to get a really nice machine for dimes on the dollar.

But if a flood submerged machine sits for half a year or more on some wholesale lot - which is more common - then the water displaces the oil inside. The water also becomes acidic and it begins to attack things like sliding surfaces and ball bearings. Now you can change oils and filters all you like and get back to clean-looking oil, but the damage is done. The tractor just won't last as long as it should. Usually the first place you see problems is in the 3 point hitch hydraulic lift and in the front axle. The 3point lift - which normally has no problems of any kind on any tractor - begins to jerk or stick when lifting or lowering an implement. For the front axle, the hardest place for them to drain water is at the lower outer wheel bearings. You will see leaks there. Not just seepage - they all seep there - but actual leakage running down the inside of the tire as rusty bearings allow motion which eats up front axle seals.

For the really good mechanic with not much money these "salvage tractors" can still be good buys because they are now pennys on the new dollar cost. Some sweat equity and the expectation that he will have to do work all it's life, but still these salvage tractors can be worth it to a really good good but poor mechanic willing to put up with hassle.

Only problem is, which one is yours? If either? That's why I thought you should pull some oil samples. Otherwise you need to be on an honest footing with a dealer who will tell you honest answers. How common is that?

On some John Deere machines the dealer can look up the history of the machine by the serial number. I've had them do that on mine in fact. At the very least you can find out where and when it was sold and to whom.
I suspect that other makes do the same thing, or at least have the information at some level. But I only know about Deere's that way. It's worth asking, though.
rScotty


Only problem is that if the machine sits with water in it for a few months then it begins to have life-shortening problems
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Once again rScotty thanks for going above and beyond with your reply.

The dealers son was very vague about this history of this machine when I asked. He basically said he wasn't sure, either a trade in or an auction. In hindsight it almost seemed like he was avoiding the question, but that is speculation and not important at this point.

I tried to get some fluid out of each filler cap this morning at 6:30 but my tube never got to fluid and I wasn't about to crawl into the mud under the tractor this morning before work. I did get that rather telling photo of the rear sight glass. Best I could do.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #24  
I agree that you could have had clear oil in the machine when you test drove and bought it, and the recent work could have emulsified it and turned it milky. I do not agree that you blew out the driveshaft seal. I think that was a long time coming. It is a 15 year old tractor.

I have a feeling that the water issue was what eventuality damaged the seals. I have no way of knowing how it got in there, how long its been in there and what other damage was done, but its a feeling from where I sit. the only way to know is to disassemble and figure it out.

The dealer is showing good faith. He may be able to help you on a deal on another machine, maybe be able to service this one and fix the water issue, and maybe offer it to you with an extended warranty or something like that.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #25  
Um.. take the money back and run. You don't need a hassle tractor for your first tractor. You need a good trouble free machine as you learn and grow into the tractor owning game.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #26  
I just browsed through this thread, no where did I see a mention of what transmission this tractor has.
I would be leery of this tractor because of the 2 pics showing the milky fluid, one was the hydraulic/transmission level glass the other to me looked like an engine oil fill.
The transmission hydraulic fluid could have looked fine when the tractor had been setting as water will separate back out from hydraulic fluid after a time.
When it gets run long enough to warm up the fluid it will start to emulsify the oil water mix to the milky appearance, if continually run it can with an increase in heat actually start to cook the water out creating pressure in the system that will push fluid past seals and even push some seals out.
That few hours on that old of a tractor tells me that it didn't get used long enough to cook any moisture out of the hydraulics and engine.
And the possibility exists that it was a flood victim, either way it would need a few oil changes and getting well warmed up to clear the moisture out of all the systems.
The original poster is most likely better off getting away from that unit.

When evaluating any equipment the oil fill caps, dipsticks and sight glasses need careful inspection for signs of moisture or milky residue..

LouNY has hit the nail on the head. Absolutely. I agree with all of that. The problem is that a tractor can appear to work pretty well for awhile with some water in the oil. And if changed quickly enough it can OK. It just all depends on how long the water has been there. Any degredation shows up more in the long term.
With a 12 speed shuttleshift it can handle water better than a HST. Watery oil is death to a HST.

The problem is not so much with the engine or manual type transmission - and a 12 speed shuttle is essentially a manual with internal clutch packs. Engines and trannys with water are most likely to simply have seal issues due to water degrading the seals at the output shafts. Anywhere that is normally submerged by oil now is submerged with water that has oil sitting on top of it when the oil & water separate.

The problem is that the transmission fluid is also the hydraulic fluid in all these tractors. And the whole hydraulic system is more easily damaged by water. And then there is the front axle. It is just darn near impossible to drain water out of the bottoms of the outboard tower gears where the front axle attaches to the wheels. And that front axle has a number of carefully shimmed bearings and seals at both outboard ends. The rear axle might be high enough up to be out of any sitting water.

Darn.... It all depends on the dealer. I'd bet he actually knows exactly where the tractor came from. Any dealer mechanic has to be keenly aware of these types of mechanical issues. The milky oil in the sight glass is damning evidence.
rScotty
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #27  
BTW, the transmission case and the front axle are both vented to the atmosphere. Usually it is a vent on top of the casting that connects to a rubber tube pointing down. This is not a one-way vent, it's just basically a opening with a tube pointing down. That's usually how water gets inside when submerged.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #28  
After reading about problems and fixes with other tractor owners on especially this forum I find that it is nerve wracking for an extended time. All we can hope for is no problems with plenty of seat time.

To start the process with a known problem would be a no-brainer for me. His mechanic knew of the problem, in my view, but swept it under the rug because that is much easier than fixing it.

What will happen when the problem surfaces again in 6 months? Now the dealer will charge a hefty hauling fee plus mechanics time for every trip to the doctor.

Six hours road time for you is nothing compared to what it could be if the problem reoccurs. I would take the check back, but that may just be me.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #29  
Have you looked at getting a new tractor with 0% financing?
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!
  • Thread Starter
#30  
I'm a used kinda guy but with my luck maybe I should consider it. Who has the best 0% financing deals?
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #31  
I'm a used kinda guy but with my luck maybe I should consider it. Who has the best 0% financing deals?

I just did a quick "Tractor 0% financing" search and most major brands have it.

I just purchased a Kubota L3301 with a 5 yr 0% financing, 0 down. I also rolled in implements into the financing.

I wanted local dealer support which is one of the reasons I went with Kubota.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #32  
When I buy equipment 0% is the least of my concerns,
If I can't cash it out I look at the final total cost, down plus the total of all the payments.
Some times a bit of interest is cheaper then so called zero percent loans.
Many times your local credit union or bank will work with you.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #33  
I'm a used kinda guy but with my luck maybe I should consider it. Who has the best 0% financing deals?

Pretty much anybody. LS makes good tractors and don't cost as much as JD or Kubota. Same for Massey, Kioti, Rural King, TYM, Yanmar. JD and Kubota typically cost more, but hold their value well, and tend to have better established dealers. Case compacts are rebadged LS models with extra charged for red paint. Mahindra can be the best bang for buck, a lot of their units are rebadge TYM, all Rural Kings are rebadged TYMs.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #34  
Your dealer is probably the victim of an unscrupulous employee. He probably paid his mechanic to check it out and it just didn't get done. My guess is this dealer may have an ad running for a mechanic soon.

This is my thought as well!

Have seen the scenario before both ways. One dealer had a great mechanic who wouldn稚 cover things up with half witted temp fixes and the other dealer trusts his mechanic who is half witted to begin with.
If this dealer is willing to give a refund without any hassle at all my bet is the mechanic was sleeping on the job when he should have been working.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #35  
I agree this is good customer service on the part of my dealer. He did the right thing. BUT, this begs the question as to how could he have let this tractor leave his lot in this condition. He sat there and told me he would never let a used tractor leave his lot without his mechanic giving it a good top to bottom check. It is OBVIOUS by the condition of the oil and rubber boot that this was not given a good top to bottom check. The only other possible thing is they knew the issues and tried to unload it as quick as possible. These are the questions I have. Both scenerios do not speak well for the dealer. Once I get a chance later I am going to call him back and try to see if he has an answer for these questions.

This is the mantra of all dealers! No dealer to my knowledge goes through tractors with a fine tooth comb, it's not good economics on his part. A good dealer will fix what he knows to be wrong, for rest they give it a perfunctory examination and pray for the best, in most cases this works and when it doesn't he'll fix. This way he doesn't waste labour hours on tractors that don't need repairs.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #36  
Take the check and move on. That might be a good tractor, but in my mind two of the fluids have water in them. Not a good sign. I know you like the tractor and want to get it fixed but I have serious doubts on how water got in there.
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #37  
take that refund in a heartbeat. People by the second tier brands new to save money over a new premium brand- no reason to buy a used one
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!
  • Thread Starter
#38  
take that refund in a heartbeat. People by the second tier brands new to save money over a new premium brand- no reason to buy a used one

I am definitely taking the refund, check's already in the bank. I have been searching Craigslist at it is daunting. That tractor was sooooo exactly what I was looking for in size, weight, power. Alas, it wasn't meant to be.

Cathy Liebchen can you explain your comment a little.? I have now decided maybe I shouldn't look for the best bargain. Even if it means throwing in more than the $10k I paid for that last one. I can borrow the rest.

Again thanks one and all for the comments!
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long! #39  
I bought a 30 year old tractor last year and have spent over $2k on repairs. If I could have done the work myself, it would have been half that. My opinion is that unless you are getting a very good deal, you should be able and willing to handle some repairs. Plus you should budget for those in your determination.

BTW, I am not unhappy with my tractor but sharing the reality.

If I upgrade, I will not purchase a used tractor. My experience is that good used machines are close to the price of new ones and there is no warranty.

BTW, after searching for months in 2012, I finally gave up. I bought my current machine from the widow of my friend. Paid more than her asking price and knew it had been abused. Still it was a fair deal.

Make a list of what you want to do with your tractor. For example, a Quick Attach for the loader would be very useful for me but not available on mine. And consider the attachments you will need.

If you qualify for financing, consider it. Unlike cars and trucks, tractors hold their value. You are young and the right tractor will last most of your life.

Just my $.02
 
/ First Post, First day owning a tractor, and I already need HELP! Kinda Long!
  • Thread Starter
#40  
I LOVE your rationale shooterdon!! It makes complete and utter sense!
 

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