Propane Whole House Generators, Warning.

[k0ua]

We went 19 days without power after Hurricane Michael in the Florida Panhandle and my propane powered, 8000 watt portable generator was a life saver. We have a 250 gallon tank filled to 80% and when we got power back we were down to 30% which the gas company filled the day we got power back. The generator ran our well pump, 2 refrigerators, freezer, 2 window ac units, stove, microwave, tv, and lights. We didn't run the generator 24/7, but it did run about 300 hours during the time power was out. It was tolerable with the portable ac units, but nice to get our normal ac back once power was restored. Never want to go through that It mess again, especially being 70 miles from the coast.

It sounds like you used your fuel wisely. Not just fire her up and let it run.

 

[AVIVIII]

We do love the low-mx, reliability, and power of the big diesel unit, especially when we might not be around, or the wife and kids are home and I am not. But until we bought it, I ran a 3200 sqft home in NH with a 5500w Generac portable. The rules are: No Electronics (inc. TV, Dishwasher, stereo, washer/dryer), Minimal heat loads (Coffee maker, toaster, dryer), don't open the chest freezer, and shut Genny off at night and when not home. We are set-up well for it, gas range, oil heat, 90 gallon super store, 60 gallon pressure tank, pellet stove works well if you start it w/o the igniter. The 2 biggest loads are the well pump and the fridge. Running it for roughly 10hrs a day in a winter outage, it would use ~7 gallons of gasoline. If it was warm out, less than half that just for well, fridge, and freezer.

That unit was set up with a back-feed/lock-out in the panel and has over 800hrs on it. Never let me down. I've still got it, but life is better with an automatic.

 

[LittleBill21]

We do love the low-mx, reliability, and power of the big diesel unit, especially when we might not be around, or the wife and kids are home and I am not. But until we bought it, I ran a 3200 sqft home in NH with a 5500w Generac portable. The rules are: No Electronics (inc. TV, Dishwasher, stereo, washer/dryer), Minimal heat loads (Coffee maker, toaster, dryer), don't open the chest freezer, and shut Genny off at night and when not home. We are set-up well for it, gas range, oil heat, 90 gallon super store, 60 gallon pressure tank, pellet stove works well if you start it w/o the igniter. The 2 biggest loads are the well pump and the fridge. Running it for roughly 10hrs a day in a winter outage, it would use ~7 gallons of gasoline. If it was warm out, less than half that just for well, fridge, and freezer.

That unit was set up with a back-feed/lock-out in the panel and has over 800hrs on it. Never let me down. I've still got it, but life is better with an automatic.

why in the world would you not use the tv or stereo? they are like non existent loads? sounds like your generator barely had a load on it most times, the dish washer uses the same as the coffee pot or toaster.

 

[aczlan]

why in the world would you not use the tv or stereo? they are like non existent loads? sounds like your generator barely had a load on it most times, the dish washer uses the same as the coffee pot or toaster.

I think the "no electronics" was due to fear of them getting fried by bad power...

Aaron Z

 

[check]

We went 19 days without power after Hurricane Michael in the Florida Panhandle and my propane powered, 8000 watt portable generator was a life saver. We have a 250 gallon tank filled to 80% and when we got power back we were down to 30% which the gas company filled the day we got power back. The generator ran our well pump, 2 refrigerators, freezer, 2 window ac units, stove, microwave, tv, and lights. We didn't run the generator 24/7, but it did run about 300 hours during the time power was out. It was tolerable with the portable ac units, but nice to get our normal ac back once power was restored. Never want to go through that mess again, especially being 70 miles from the coast.

Wow, that is only about .4 gallons per hour! What brand is it? And are you sure about your figures?

 

[Industrial Toys]

I was reading some funny stuff on Reddit, about how to mess with people. One guy had enough of a guy bragging about how good mileage his new truck got. The other guy would add fuel to the braggers truck daily, although I find that hard to believe. Then he started siphoning fuel out, and the guy went nuts, going to the dealer, trying to have it fixed. When revealed to him, what had been done, he never bragged again.

I have out of the way switches for my Dishwasher and Microwave. I try not to start and stop a generator with electronics (that are not on a high end UPS) connected. I'm guessing, when connected to the utility, you have a rather large buffer to soak up large spikes and surges that probably isn't there when running a generator.

 

[AVIVIII]

why in the world would you not use the tv or stereo? they are like non existent loads? sounds like your generator barely had a load on it most times, the dish washer uses the same as the coffee pot or toaster.

The power wasn't "clean" enough; THD too high is my guess, but never put it on the scope, and according to my Kill-A-Watt, it never made 60Hz dead on. The dishwasher/washer/dryer/microwave would refuse to even power on, never mind run. Stereo/TV made nasty noises, so we just didn't use them. I banned all electric heat appliances because if someone wasn;t smart enough to wait to make toast until after the Keurig was done, I'm the one that had to go out and reset the generator, and there's plenty of other ways to make toast and coffee. Computers generally seemed okay, probably due to the power supplies, but I unplugged a lot of the network gear, so there wasn't much to do.

Since we're talking about it, I did find that if you run an inductive load on the same circuit, electronics worked "better", I'm not sure of the science behind it, but if you are having power problems with a TV, plug a fan into the same power strip.

With the diesel, we run everything without remorse; the neighbors love seeing 4,000+ Christmas lights on while the whole road is out of power!

 

[Industrial Toys]

I only make 220 with my various sets and inverter, not even having a neutral connected, so they all run perfectly balanced, and have a nice big transformer that makes my neutral. I think it offers a nice big inductor in the circuit as well. Particularly when I run my little Yanmar 3.7, I don't have to worry what side of the line I might have such and such a load on. Like a toaster, kettle or whatever.

I finally got my light out at the entrance again, about a thousand feet from the house. That should throw people for a loop when they drive around, when their power is out, wondering where the problem lies.

 

[JasperFrank]

Yup. In our worst ice storm, that lasted 7 days of no power, my little cheap Homelite GASOLINE Generator, 4400 watt, 12 years old, still supplied enough lights and ran the refrigerator, charged phones, and computer laptops or would run the well pump. Why would any one buy something else? Its been able to go through at least three outages that lasted 4 days or more and ran continuously for 6 or more hours each day. We have many outages were I live. Still running strong. Starts on second pull. The neighbors all bought something like it after the big outage cause I had the lights on.

 

[MNBobcat]

If you need the clean power all you need to do is plug a UPS into the power supply and then plug your device into the UPS. A good UPS will clean the power right up and you can run a computers or anything else off a dirty generator using that technique.

The power wasn't "clean" enough; THD too high is my guess, but never put it on the scope, and according to my Kill-A-Watt, it never made 60Hz dead on. The dishwasher/washer/dryer/microwave would refuse to even power on, never mind run. Stereo/TV made nasty noises, so we just didn't use them. I banned all electric heat appliances because if someone wasn;t smart enough to wait to make toast until after the Keurig was done, I'm the one that had to go out and reset the generator, and there's plenty of other ways to make toast and coffee. Computers generally seemed okay, probably due to the power supplies, but I unplugged a lot of the network gear, so there wasn't much to do.

Since we're talking about it, I did find that if you run an inductive load on the same circuit, electronics worked "better", I'm not sure of the science behind it, but if you are having power problems with a TV, plug a fan into the same power strip.

With the diesel, we run everything without remorse; the neighbors love seeing 4,000+ Christmas lights on while the whole road is out of power!

 

[PSDStu]

Wow, that is only about .4 gallons per hour! What brand is it? And are you sure about your figures?

Its a Generac XT8000, and thats right about the numbers.

 

[RoyKing]

If you need the clean power all you need to do is plug a UPS into the power supply and then plug your device into the UPS. A good UPS will clean the power right up and you can run a computers or anything else off a dirty generator using that technique.

Most little Ups are switched and will not clean the line, only the expensive always on AC DC AC Ups will clean the line. Or the ferro transformer type again expensive.

 

[check]

Its a Generac XT8000, and thats right about the numbers.

Cost about $1000 US at Lowe’s right? And is yours the fuel injected model?

 

[AGTtactical]

I have never liked the concept of propane for home use. I came accross this video quite by accident.
Home Standby Generator - Before You Buy, Watch This - YouTube
The only thing worse than not having something you need in an Emergency is Thinking that you do! Ironically, this guys saving grace was his 7.5 Onan Diesel set in his RV.

Its probably not wise to base your decisions from videos posted by idiots on youtube. I mean, look at this clown...he has more money in RVs than he does in his house! And, he puts in 250 gallon storage tank for a whole house generator? Good grief...if posting a "warning" thread, please provide something more substantial than a stupid youtube video which provides nothing but anecdotal evidence.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Its probably not wise to base your decisions from videos posted by idiots on youtube. I mean, look at this clown...he has more money in RVs than he does in his house! And, he puts in 250 gallon storage tank for a whole house generator?

So he has more $ in RV's than he does his house?

That doesn't change the fact his generator is a fuel hog and he's not happy with THAT, OR the company that sold him his generator.

I can see his side of the story and HE has had to live it! I wouldn't be happy either, especially if I had to pay for all the propane that he is having to use!!

I'll stick with my DIESEL POWERED, pto generator, for extended outages!

SR

 

[MossRoad]

Its probably not wise to base your decisions from videos posted by idiots on youtube. I mean, look at this clown...he has more money in RVs than he does in his house! And, he puts in 250 gallon storage tank for a whole house generator? Good grief...if posting a "warning" thread, please provide something more substantial than a stupid youtube video which provides nothing but anecdotal evidence.

The issue you missed isn't the size of the tank, it's the selection of fuel; propane VS diesel.

He also had a legitimate beef with Cummins service, which he explains first, then gets into the fuel consumption issues with propane VS diesel.

- Homeowner couldn't get the Tallahassee, FL Cummins Co. to help him several weeks before the hurricane with generator problems that were already occurring.
- Homeowner had to get the Cummins Co. in Albany, GA. to help him.
- That technician was in town Friday before the storm and was supposed to come that day.
- The technician cancelled that appointment and wanted to reschedule for the following Wednesday.
- Homeowner tells technician the hurricane is supposed to arrive Wednesday.
- Technician tells him there's nothing going to happen with the hurricane that's gonna affect the homeowner (homeowner pans camera around to show devastation that did in fact happen and shrugs his shoulders) (also notes that Technician from GA never showed up after storm and never was heard from again).
- Homeowner called Cummins corp offices and they had him deal with Cummins Co. in Mobile, Alabama.
- Homeowner self diagnoses problem, gets part number from Cummins in Mobile on Monday before the storm.
- Homeowner says Cummins in Mobile could not get the part in their hands until about a week later.
- Homeowner meets Cummins tech at a commercial client on Tuesday after storm (7 days), gets the part and installs it himself.
- Generator is running 7 days after storm, when problems were reported to Cummins several weeks before the storm.
- Homeowner says well, at least its running, yay!
- Then homeowner gets to the part about propane VS diesel.
- Homeowner says propane generator is great for short-term outages, like overnight thunderstorms. Great. But for long term outages, propane sucks because of massive fuel consumption. It's using 2 gallons per hour with hardly a load on it.
- On a 250 gallon tank you can only use 80% of the fuel. So that's 200 gallons.
- Of that remaining 200 gallons, you can only use 80% because the pressure drops so much and it won't feed the generator properly, so that's 160 gallons.
- In his 250 gallon tank, with that generator, he only has 160 gallons usable.
- At 2 gallons per hour with a minimal load, that 250 gallon tank only provides 80 hours of run-time, which is only 3 days and 8 hours.
- It's Tuesday, they won't be there until Friday to fill it, and he only has about 1 day of fuel left.
- He can run his diesel generator for 24 hours on about 8 gallons per day. If he had a 250 gallon diesel tank, he could run for 31 days VS 3.3 day on the same gallons of propane.
- So he can run about 9 times longer on the same gallons of diesel.

To summarize according to facts provided by him:
- Bought a propane generator and selected propane tank size on recommendations from installer.
- Had poor service well before the storm from his local Cummins service center.
- Got minimal help from 2nd Cummins service center he contacted.
- Had to go through corporate Cummins to get help from 3rd Cummins service center.
- Had to self diagnose and install part himself.
- Got it running for the first long-term usage and realized his 24 hour standby generator consumes a ridiculous amount of fuel compared to a diesel generator.

Let's face it. Not that many people know about generators, engines, fuel consumption, etc... and rely on their sales people and installers for recommendations as to what to purchase. Then find out their sales people and installers and service people all have let them down.

This guy is not a clown and he's not stupid. He was misinformed and now realizes he's been sold a poor choice of a product for his situation, and, on top of it, he also gets poor service. So he posted a video with the facts as he sees them as a lesson to others who might be considering a propane powered generator.

Granted, as with all videos like this, and just like many dealer complaints we see here on TBN each year, it's a one-sided view of the situation and we don't hear from any of the people he is mentioning. Would like to hear their side of the story, but we never will, unless they file a lawsuit against him.

Personally, I think the guy did a good job of keeping calm and telling his side of the live and learn story.

 

[MossRoad]

So he has more $ in RV's than he does his house?

That doesn't change the fact his generator is a fuel hog and he's not happy with THAT, OR the company that sold him his generator.

I can see his side of the story and HE has had to live it! I wouldn't be happy either, especially if I had to pay for all the propane that he is having to use!!

I'll stick with my DIESEL POWERED, pto generator, for extended outages!

SR

Agreed. :thumbsup:

 

[AGTtactical]

Well, I guess we differ, as I think its generally a good idea to take responsibility for your own decisions. Sounds like the company fixed the initial problem for him (gave him the part), and he got what he paid for. Its not Cummins fault, or the company's fault, or the propane generator's fault that he didn't do his homework. Mistakes: 1) Didn't know propane burns more fuel than diesel 2) Didn't what the fuel consumption rate was before he bought 3) Didn't know how to size his generator...claims his house is "extremely efficient, yet buys more generator than he needs 4) Didn't know how to size his tank...if we wanted to run his generator for days, or even 8 hours/day, he should have bought a bigger tank. Call me old fashioned, but that video is nothing but modern day bs whining. But hey, if you are the kind of person that blames everyone else for your own decisions, then there's likely nothing I can say will change your minds.

No argument about a PTO driven diesel generator...why pay for an extra generator engine when you can use your tractor with a large fuel tank, AND its mobile. My big Cummins truck has two high output alternators and two 4000 watt inverters, which runs everything I need in an emergency (I don't need to run the whole house when the power is out).

 

[MossRoad]

Well, I guess we differ, as I think its generally a good idea to take responsibility for your own decisions. Sounds like the company fixed the initial problem for him, and he got what he paid for. Its not Cummins fault, or the company's fault, or the propane generator's fault that he didn't do his homework. Mistakes: 1) Didn't know propane burns more fuel than diesel 2) Didn't what the fuel consumption rate was before he bought 3) Didn't know how to size his generator...claims his house is "extremely efficient, yet buys more generator than he needs 4) Didn't know how to size his tank...if we wanted to run his generator for days, or even 8 hours/day, he should have bought a bigger tank. Call me old fashioned, but that video is nothing but modern day bs whining. But hey, if you are the kind of person that blames everyone else for your own decisions, then there's likely nothing I can say will change your minds.

No argument about a PTO driven diesel generator...why pay for an extra generator engine when you can use your tractor with a large fuel tank, AND its mobile. My big Cummins truck has two high output alternators and two 4000 watt inverters, which runs everything I need in an emergency (I don't need to run the whole house when the power is out).

He did take responsibility for his own decision. He's telling people it is a bad decision to go with a propane fueled generator for long term disasters. He's saying, here's what I learned. Don't do it the way I did. Don't believe what the sales people and installers tell you. Take my bad experience and learn from it.

The company did not fix the initial problem for him. He started working on it several weeks before the hurricane and they never showed up. He had to jump through hoops, self diagnose, go pick up a part himself a week after the hurricane was over, and install it himself. Again, he took responsibility upon himself to get it going when Cummins didn't.

It is most certainly the fault of the sales people that told him this would be a good choice for 24/7 automatic standby generator. They recommended a larger generator than what he ended up getting. He went with a smaller one because he was concerned with the high fuel consumption of the larger one they originally suggested, and it still turned out to be a pig.

The video is well done. The guy isn't whining or screaming. He presented his side of the story very well. And leaves it as a warning to anyone else considering a propane powered generator as a viable 24/7 standby unit and what to expect for fuel consumption, as well as service from the manufacturer.

 

[AGTtactical]

The issue you missed isn't the size of the tank, it's the selection of fuel; propane VS diesel.

So is it someone else's fault that he bought propane instead of diesel? Do you blame a car dealership if you buy a gas truck and later wish you bought a diesel?

Let's face it. Not that many people know about generators, engines, fuel consumption, etc... and rely on their sales people and installers for recommendations as to what to purchase. Then find out their sales people and installers and service people all have let them down.

So ignorance is everyone else's fault? Its not like the burn rates for that generator are some great secret...the info is readily available on the internet. It's pretty clear his biggest beef is that he was going to run out of propane...HE INSTALLED THE WRONG SIZE TANK FOR HIS INTENDED PURPOSE. He even complains about not being able to get more propane after a major storm! Newsflash...that's what happens after a major storm. Again, should have bought a bigger tank so he wouldn't be in this situation. He lives on the Gulf Coast for goodness sake, so these things shouldn't be a surprise.

He did take responsibility for his own decision. He's telling people it is a bad decision to go with a propane fueled generator for long term disasters. He's saying, here's what I learned. Don't do it the way I did. Don't believe what the sales people and installers tell you. Take my bad experience and learn from it.

This guy your friend or something? Because he never ever remotely says anything like this. He never says "I should have known", or "I failed to research this"...he blames everyone but himself. Good grief...

As for the service, we are only hearing one side of the story. From the sounds of if, this customer probably burnt some bridges. And in the weeks before a major storm, thousands of people are trying to get service on their generators, which VERY likely contributed to the poor support. Despite what some apparently think here, parts don't grow on trees. They often have to be ordered, and around storm time, parts are hard to come by. Anyhow, that's all I have to say on the matter. Maybe 21 years in the Marine Corps has made me a little intolerant of people not taking responsibility for their own decisions. Out.