Fast dump and full curl not working correctly

Coyote machine · Nov 24, 2018

Today I found after moving palleted items to a woodland area for winter storage I suddenly could no longer get my forks to behave correctly when I move the joystick full left or right. Prior to the problem hindering operation I noticed going full right, fast dump would sometimes render the forks going the opposite of what I wanted them to do. Same thing going full left on the joystick; 'full curl'? I removed the forks to attach my bucket, but could not get the QA plates on the loader to tilt far enough forward to get under the bucket's lip to attach the bucket. I also could not get the 'plates' to retract fully. The cylinders did not completely retract into their tubes.
I looked underneath the right side floorboard to see if any QDs were disconnected, and tugged on each hose, but none seemed to be loose or partially disconnected.
Any ideas on what might be causing this other than a disconnected QD?

TIA,

CM

747driver · Nov 25, 2018

Similar problem on my CK27 last year. My dump cylinders wouldn't stay up, always going to dump. New seal kits were installed. Really didn't fix the problem. So after troubleshooting I removed the spool valves. Found one of the joystick return springs loose. Cleaned both spool valves,springs etc and then adjusted the cable between the spool valve and joystick. Works as advertised now !! You could also lift the joystick rubber boot covering and make sure the nylon balls on the joystick control are not loose or cracked.

Coyote machine · Nov 25, 2018

747driver said:
Similar problem on my CK27 last year. My dump cylinders wouldn't stay up, always going to dump. New seal kits were installed. Really didn't fix the problem. So after troubleshooting I removed the spool valves. Found one of the joystick return springs loose. Cleaned both spool valves,springs etc and then adjusted the cable between the spool valve and joystick. Works as advertised now !! You could also lift the joystick rubber boot covering and make sure the nylon balls on the joystick control are not loose or cracked.

Is the spool valve(s) you refer to under the joystick boot? Do I need to remove anything besides the joystick boot to see the nylon balls/springs? What would constitute loose so far as the balls go? Any precautions regarding disassembly of any of the mentioned assemblies?
Thanks for initial reply and any further questions you may be able to answer.

CM

Coyote machine · Nov 25, 2018

Here's what I have done so far in trying to figure out what is going on with my joystick and dump/curl cylinders.
I checked under the right side floorboard to verify that none of the loader's QD's were partially disconnected or leaking, etc. Everything was tight with no leaks.
I then checked my joystick trigger activated diverter valve and all connections are tight, no leaks.
I checked HST fluid level. Almost full on the stick, and clean fluid, as usual.
I tried both curl and dump with no load on the FEL QC pads. I did not get any but the slightest movement toward curl or dump, and when the joystick was pushed to either side the relief valve sound was heard. So currently only up or down is working on the FEL, NO curl or dump function at all. I tied my loaded BB with about 1600#s of ballast to one side of the loader's pads and tried to see if the load might make the curl or dump work. Nothing happened, no movement.

I have removed the cover down to where I could, in theory remove the Joystick completely. IF it is possible to do so withOUT removing the right rear wheel, AND fender, to be able to unbolt the joystick bolts. I believe I read about someone using a hole saw and cutting through the fender to access the bolts, but I may have dreampt it up as a solution, or the idea was used to access some other part that was built 'under' the assembly of other parts at the factory, thus making huge disassembly necessary...

So I don't see any way to remove the joystick rubber boot on my DK series. Maybe 747driver's CK27 has a different joystick with a removable boot?
And I don't know if I have to/need to remove the joystick at all or whether I need to be focussing on the spool valve(s), instead?!
Help please! I do not know enough to be anything but dangerous to the outcome- since I still don't know even close to what is wrong...

K5lwq · Nov 25, 2018

If I am understanding you correctly, when you push the joystick to either side to dump or curl, you can hear it blow over the relief valve and see no movement. If that is the case, you need to look closer at the quick disconnects. One of them must not be connected fully. Try disconnecting and reconnect the disconnects.

Based on what you are saying, I strongly doubt there is a issue with the joystick.

Coyote machine · Nov 25, 2018

K5lwq said:
If I am understanding you correctly, when you push the joystick to either side to dump or curl, you can hear it blow over the relief valve and see no movement. If that is the case, you need to look closer at the quick disconnects. One of them must not be connected fully. Try disconnecting and reconnect the disconnects.

Based on what you are saying, I strongly doubt there is a issue with the joystick.

Ok, when I say I can hear it blow off the relief, I mean it makes the noise that indicates holding the stick in that position is doing nothing, and it sounds like it is strained to the end of its ability to do anything- especially since nothing is happening when held at the end of its curl or dump position.
I can try undoing the QDs to see if one is not loose but might be not completely sealed as it should be.
Thanks for the input- I don't know what else to do at this point other than much more drastic diagnosis by tear-down of the spool valves; something I definitely want to avoid if at all possible.

K5lwq · Nov 25, 2018

That is what I understood. So, because the flow is being directed by the spool valve it sounds as if it cannot flow through the cylinder. The only thing left for it to do is blow over the relief. This tells me the spool valve is working.

It has to be something blocking that flow on one side or the other for that spool. If you don't find a problem at the disconnects then start tracing the lines and check for flow at each connection point.

Coyote machine · Nov 25, 2018

So for theory discussion, say I check the QDs and dis then reconnect each one, then where to. The spool is not a QD, except on the Loader 'feed'. What do you suggest as a method to check the flow at each connection point?
Any ideas or methods would be helpful. I'm not a hydraulics savvy guy...:confused3:

LD1 · Nov 26, 2018

Definataly try the QD's first. Just unhook all of them as if you were removing the loader, then re-attach all of them.

If that dont work, I'd try swapping the lift and curl hoses. Then try to operate the loader again.

If the problem is still that the bucket wont curl or dump...then you know the issue is somewhere between the QD's and the cylinder.

If the problem moves to the lift/lower of the loader and curl starts working fine...then you know the problem is somewhere between the QD's and the valve (or the valve itself).

Coyote machine · Nov 26, 2018

OK, that's my next step to dis and then reconnect all QDs at the valve under the right side station platform. Man, I hope it proves to be the cause, but I'm somewhat skeptical. I sure hope its not the valve, but this will help pinpoint to problem. Thanks to all who have replied so far. I'll report progress as it occurs.

K5lwq · Nov 26, 2018

It is unlikely to be the valve. Just follow the steps LD1 gave you and we will have a better understanding.

Coyote machine · Nov 26, 2018

I only got to the innermost hose and disconnected it and cleaned both ends. Reinstalled it and tried it just to see what was what. No change. Doing the rest tomorrow when I may have more time.

Question: does anyone know which disconnects go to what function(s)? We have a snow/ice storm coming overnight/tomorrow and it would be great to know what to disconnect/clean etc. so I maybe able to regain curl/dump, even if I have to loose raise/lower temporary.

K5lwq, what makes you think it's not the valve- just curious?

TIA,
CM

K5lwq · Nov 26, 2018

I am not saying it can't be a valve problem, it is just unlikely. Valves can last many years with no real change in performance. I question the valve being the issue because the issue appeared more suddenly. I could see it being a joystick or cable problem.

However, because you stated you hear the relief tells me the spool is moving in both directions directing flow from return to the cylinder. Because something has the flow blocked completely off, the cylinder can't move. I am still leaning towards a quick disconnect problem.

I would not even worry about cleaning the disconnects so much at this time. With the tractor off, cycle the joystick in all directions several times. Disconnect each hose and reconnect making sure they snap securely in place.

If you still have the issue, disconnect again and move the two hoses from one spool to the other. Try to keep up with which hose is which. Then see what happens.

Billrog · Nov 26, 2018

Bent cylinder rod ?

K5lwq · Nov 26, 2018

Possible Billrog, I am just hoping for a simple fix. :thumbsup:

ritcheyvs · Nov 26, 2018

Most likely a quick coupler not fully engaged and locked, as others mentioned. Those things can be disengaged but look completely normal. There is no guarantee which coupler is which based on location; just follow the hoses on the loader. Also, could your diverter be energized (or stuck) without a grapple or other load connected?

Coyote machine · Nov 26, 2018

The QDs on the valve are color coded and so are the hose ends. I don't think a cyl rod is bent, they both are trying to move in curl and dump, but can't, and instantly make the overload/relief sound if pushed to the far end of the joystick travel.
I too have thought about something in the diverter circuit blocking proper operation of the curl/dump cycle. I will check the wires running to the diverter valve especially since the wires could be chafing or shorting out along the way back to the valve. The wires are not sleeve protected and there are places where they could have worn down to bare metal. Since the most recent use other than bucket and forks was the grapple, it is possible the diverter is suspect. I will check it out tomorrow.

Thanks all for your insights- its been very helpful so far. We'll get there; I'm confident of that. :thumbsup:

ritcheyvs · Nov 26, 2018

FYI, it's easy (and common) for debris (e.g. brush) to trip the collar on a quick coupler and release it but in such a way that it still appears connected.

Glad if you can still see the colors. Mine were on paper bands that are all but gone.

With the engine off (but key on) my diverter makes a very audible "clack" when engaged and released, you might listen to that for a clue on diverter function.

Also, the diverter valve should be in the normal (curl/dump) position when unpowered. So you might try unhooking the diverter electrical connector to see if that restores curl/dump.

Coyote machine · Nov 26, 2018

ritcheyvs said:
FYI, it's easy (and common) for debris (e.g. brush) to trip the collar on a quick coupler and release it but in such a way that it still appears connected.

Glad if you can still see the colors. Mine were on paper bands that are all but gone.

With the engine off (but key on) my diverter makes a very audible "clack" when engaged and released, you might listen to that for a clue on diverter function.

Also, the diverter valve should be in the normal (curl/dump) position when unpowered. So you might try unhooking the diverter electrical connector to see if that restores curl/dump.

I know! The first time I had a hired site tech and my builder walking in front of me when I had just bought my DK-35, and coming out of the woods where I was digging test pits I hit one of the QDs on a sapling stump and I immediately had no control of some FEL function, and I was hurtling toward them trying to figure out what was going on - I dammm near ran them down being distracted and they were paying no attention to me being behind them. I figured out- in that instance the entire male fitting was disconnected- what had gone wrong. Too close a call!

I have in this current episode tugged on the male disconnects and wiggled them around- BUT I have not yet completely dis and reconnected.
We'll see what the results are. I will definitely test the diverter as you outlined- it's definitely on my suspect list!:confused3: