Found a coyote, I think

[Rock knocker]

Sandy is happy and healthy and living with her life partner at Southwest Wildlife Conservation Center in Scottsdale AZ

Have they spoken of marraige? Or are they living in sin?

 

[Sigarms]

Around here, the dogs are always free to go. They love it here. Perhaps you missed that.

On a follow up and something I missed, we're only down to 3 dogs now. No dog under our supervision is "free to go" (and by free to go, I mean leave the house without being in a fenced in area if no humans are in direct contact outside to supervise where that animal may "wonder").

So what do you mean by "free to go"??

I have no doubt that a coyote or even perhaps a wolf can be domesticated like a dog given the time, but what does it accomplish?

The harsh reality is in my own county, we put down at least 3,000 dogs a year with a total human population of no more than 8% more the amount of dogs put down.

 

[drssg]

I can’t recall whether I’ve posted to this thread before, but it is quite an amazing story. I appreciate you taking the time to share it with us.

Some of the recent nature vs. nurture posts have gotten me thinking about animal behavior and their intelligence.

My dog was standing in mowed grass one day, and there was a single tall weed that was tickling him in the flank. He was quite frustrated, and he twisted his head way around to attempt to bite at this irritant. It was beyond his intelligence to realize that he could take one step in any direction to solve the problem. This same dog had a freaky ability to know when I was about to trim his toenails, which terrified him. So he was both incredibly stupid and incredibly insightful.

When I ride a sensitive and well-trained horse, I have to be careful about thinking about what I want to do next. The horse will perceive some unconscious change on my part, and start doing things sooner than I want. This same horse will take a crap in his own water bucket, if his rump happens to be next to his water bucket when he gets the urge.

I am convinced that animals have very little capacity for rational thought, as we understand it. They have an incredible capacity for very simple conditioned response learning, and they are incredibly aware of their environment. These factors combine so their behavior sometimes appears quite intelligent and almost clairvoyant, but I believe their true thought process is quite simple.

FWIW, and sorry for the rambling thread scope creep.

 

[two_bit_score]

I can’t recall whether I’ve posted to this thread before, but it is quite an amazing story. I appreciate you taking the time to share it with us.

Some of the recent nature vs. nurture posts have gotten me thinking about animal behavior and their intelligence.

My dog was standing in mowed grass one day, and there was a single tall weed that was tickling him in the flank. He was quite frustrated, and he twisted his head way around to attempt to bite at this irritant. It was beyond his intelligence to realize that he could take one step in any direction to solve the problem. This same dog had a freaky ability to know when I was about to trim his toenails, which terrified him. So he was both incredibly stupid and incredibly insightful.

When I ride a sensitive and well-trained horse, I have to be careful about thinking about what I want to do next. The horse will perceive some unconscious change on my part, and start doing things sooner than I want. This same horse will take a crap in his own water bucket, if his rump happens to be next to his water bucket when he gets the urge.

I am convinced that animals have very little capacity for rational thought, as we understand it. They have an incredible capacity for very simple conditioned response learning, and they are incredibly aware of their environment. These factors combine so their behavior sometimes appears quite intelligent and almost clairvoyant, but I believe their true thought process is quite simple.

FWIW, and sorry for the rambling thread scope creep.

Some good examples of your insight with your animals. Thanks!




.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

When most of us think about animal intelligence we tend to think of our pets and stock, so maybe that's not fair to animals. Horses are certainly not among the more intelligent animals. They are eminently *trainable* but not rational thinkers. Some are a bit smarter than others for sure. I say this as a horse lover.

There are many lists of "most intelligent animals." In the more scientific attempts to rank animal intelligence, elephants, dolphins, crows, chimps, and octopi are all found to be smarter than dogs. So are squirrels. I had a pet squirrel that learned to open interior doors. It appears wild animals are often more intelligent than domesticated ones. Maybe that's why we chose to domesticate them. Being too smart might not be desirable in a domesticated animal. E.g., an animal that is an "escape artist" can be a problem. Folks who have dealt with both species say wolves are smarter than dogs. Perhaps intelligence is eventually selected out of our domesticated animals due to no need to find food/avoid predators, or due to a human preference for more desirable traits such as trainability and docility.

 

[two_bit_score]

Our house cat has trained us to do just about everything she wants us to do.

 

[dragoneggs]

Our house cat has trained us to do just about everything she wants us to do.

Ha ha... a whole new angle.

 

[cqaigy2]

Our house cat has trained us to do just about everything she wants us to do.

Cats and dogs are very capable of training other animals. :laughing:

 

[two_bit_score]

Cats and dogs are very capable of training other animals. :laughing:

They are! :laughing:

 

[Raspy]

So what do you mean by "free to go"??

I have no doubt that a coyote or even perhaps a wolf can be domesticated like a dog given the time, but what does it accomplish?

I think some have missed the point here. The effort was NOT to domesticate a coyote, make a coyote into a pet, or take away her freedom to be wild.

She came to us unexpectedly and we thought she was a domestic dog. Then we tried returning her to the wild and she almost froze to death. So we brought her home and began to feed and warm her. The alternative for her was to become lunch for some wild birds. The Y in the road was for her to either be eaten right there, or to develop this wonderful story and learn a huge amount from her. Yes, I made that decision and I'm very glad I did. To say, as some have, that she is somehow miserable, because she was restrained, is ridiculous.

It was decided that we'd study her. The idea was NEVER to train her or to pen her up and keep her. It was to study her and learn about her and her kind.

Once she was out of her box and roaming around on her own, before she even opened her eyes, she was free to wander as she chose, within limits. I say "within limits" because we would take her with us on trips and we had to keep her out of traffic, or with us in other peoples houses, etc. Once she was more capable, she was completely free to go and was never fenced in while at home. We live on five acres in the high desert and don't have any fences. Sandy stayed outside almost al the time and dug her own den, struggled with wild coyotes, napped during the day and wandered at night. She spent hours visiting us as we built our new house and spent time on the porch, day and night playing and hanging out. She stole things from us and hid them, invented her own keep-away game and patrolled around the place as she wanted to. She would always come to see us when we got up in the morning and spent many hours wrestling around with me, growling and play biting as we rolled around. She always came running when Liye came back with road kill rabbits for her and could usually be found scouting around like a cat might do. Mid-day, we never counted on seeing her because she was busy napping in her den. If we wanted her, we'd send Beibei to get her. Beibei could get into the den, wake her up and bring her back. In fact, Beibei would wander farther than Sandy and Sandy became uncomfortable when Beibei would wander too far. Sandy would look back and forth at us and Beibei with some concern. No fences in sight.

She lived with us and stayed here because she chose to do so. It would have been far easier for us if she had found a mate and left, or had just decided to live in the wild away from people. Far easier. But she chose to be with us and we chose to be her friends and learn from her.

I avoided trying to train her because I wanted to learn her true nature, not just force her to conform or do tricks. She became housebroken on her own, developed friendships with other local dogs, found her place in the hierarchy, developed a love for riding in the truck and settled into our schedule.

The main exception to this was that we put a collar on her early and trained her to be on a leash. She got along fairly well on a leash and it was useful if we wanted to move around on foot with her and keep her out of trouble, or from scaring anyone. For instance, visiting friends in the city or letting her out to pee along the highway. It allowed her to not panic when restrained and to even go for a controlled walk sometimes. She never was completely comfortable with walking on a leash because she was shy and cautious. So, if I wanted her to move faster, or toward a new person, she would hit the brakes until she decided it was safe to proceed.

Some keep making the point that it's unkind or improper to "cage" a wild animal. I get that, but overplaying that point misses what was really going on. Maximum value can be had here by understanding what we did and what we tried to do. Not by trying to make this story into something it's not.

Nature vs nurture is a big part of Sandy's story. Yes, she is a coyote from the wild, and that is what makes her so interesting. What does that mean? Who are these wild dogs?, Etc. But she was responsive to nurture. This leads to my ongoing question: What is the difference between a wild dog and a domestic dog? It's not a subject for argument, it's a simple question. It's not about trapping wild dogs. It's not about being mean to a wild dog for my own benefit. It's a simple question. And it seems that she could have lived her entire life here if it wasn't for outside influences that were, in my estimation, unfortunate.

I sincerely appreciate all of the input and thoughtful responses made here. But this is not the forum to rail about how I or others have mistreated wild animals. Or how bad it is to keep them miserably confined. Or about taking away their choices. Or turning them into little pets to cuddle with. It is about peeking through a window into another world that VERY few of us have ever had the chance to do. And all done in a very humane way that attempted to allow Sandy to be herself, be healthy, have fun and reveal who she is. An attempt to learn all I could about a very interesting animal by interacting with her while not restricting her. Indeed, I went WAY out of my way to protect her from Animal Control, concerned neighbors, jerks that wanted to use her for target practice, diseases, starvation and wild dogs likely to kill her.

And remember too, the alternative was for her to be a bird's lunch. Some might argue that that is nature's way, and what we did was interfering. That's one way to look at it. But I say we learned a lot and had a life changing experience without harming her. The proof is that she is well balanced and happy.

As for the "marriage" comment someone made, read the story or study coyotes if you are interested. They mate for life. This stabilizes them and helps reveal a lot about their world. They play, scheme, use teamwork to hunt, live in a common den and switch rolls in their relationships. They need each other and their relationships are sometimes referred to as being married. It's not anthropomorphizing, it's a useful term to help understand them.