Ford 1710 will crank but not start

[grateful4]

Just picked up this Ford 1710 and the WSM will be delivered this week. I've read a lot on this forum and I have a lot of respect for all of you.

Tractor:
Early 80's Ford 1710

Cause:
Previous owner says there was a knock, he ran it low on oil and couldnt get it started after that. (Early 70s gentleman, his first and last tractor he said, he bought it 3 months ago.)

Fluids;
1. New WIX Oil Filter
2. Fresh 15W/40 cj4 - Just over 4.5 quarts
Added
3. Just under 1 Quart Marvel Mystery Oil added to oil
4. 1/8th Quart Marvel Mystery Oil in Fuel Tank 3/4th full
5. Approx 4 oz 15W/40 in kiki fuel injection pump
6. Dumped light fuel filter residue, and maybe a little water? and replaced with the same filter

Wiring;
1. Bypassed safety relay (ignition 12v directly to the starter on key turn)
2. Cleaned ground, which is attached to 2240 QT loader that is bolted to the frame
3. Cleaned battery terminals

Parts;
1. Starter solenoid was not engaging or stuck, removed and wired directly to test battery, it unstuck and began to click.. He had replaced this and I have the old one with some damaged teeth.
2. Removed starter and tested for pop and spin. When activated on the test battery it popped and spun.
3. Reinstalled starter and solenoid

Issues:
1. Starter cranks and engine tries to start but never quite gets running
2. Bled screw above inline fuel filter, fuel came out
3. Loosened bleed screw on kiki injector pump and fuel came out solid after a bit of bubbles.
4. Loosened injectors #1 and #3, one at a time and closing afterward, then cranked to make sure fuel is flowing through them (injector #2, the middle) appears to flex a bit when trying to loosen it and I havent applied enough pressure to break the bolt and check for fuel.

What happens when I attempt to start:
1. Hold key to the left to heat glow plugs for 20sec until coil indicator glows on dash
2. Turn key to the right to start, with clutch engaged in neutral/neutral (Not necessary as relay is bypassed), and mid throttle
3. Starter engages and black exhaust comes out of the pipe as it turns over. It nearly gets to that running but doesnt quite get there.

Potential Problems:
1. Glow Plugs not actually getting hot?
> Maybe one or two work and it is trying to start on 1 or 2 cyclinders?
2. Battery not providing enough CCA?
> I can test this by running jumper cables from my truck battery? I have an x2 power battery from my truck spare in there now.. Less than 1 year old 880 CCA I believe.. A bit drained from trying to start.
3. Starter not providing enough power? I read a few ford owners with similiar models had to replace their starters often.
4. Still air in the fuel injector lines?

I am grateful for any help! This is my first post on the forum and I am a novice mechanic... I started working on my truck and tractors for the first time in my life thanks to forums like this and YouTube!

 

[Dave M7040]

It is possible that the Glow Plugs are not working in spite of the glowing indicator.

When I read about people having bypassed design features I get a bit nervous giving advice.
A lot of tractors have started in gear and run people over, crashed through the back wall of the garage and worse.

How about explaining why you:
1. Bypassed safety relay (ignition 12v directly to the starter on key turn)

The ignition switch is not designed to switch high amperage loads. Second, a relay or solenoid generates high voltage spikes when shutting off. The magnetic field builds up around the coil of wire and when this magnetic field collapses (when the power is shut off) back around the internal coil, a voltage spike of hundreds of volts can be produced. The relay you have bypassed would have lessened the risk of shock to you. Newer tractors now incorporate flyback diodes to help mange these high voltage spikes.

This is an illustration of a diode block used by John Deere to deal with these flyback voltages. Six diodes.

This is an example of a single flyback diode.

Remove any electrical connection on the Glow plugs. Measure the resistance of each GP to ground. It should be around 0.95 ohms.
Do NOT apply 12 volts directly to a glow plug. It could explode in your face.

Posting the wiring diagram when you get your WSM will be a big help.

This next photo is to show you how responsible companies like John Deere are adding relays to improve the starting on their garden tractors while you are removing one from yours.

Dave M7040

 

[grateful4]

Hi Dave,

I will test the glow plugs with my multimeter on ohms in the morning as you have suggested.

The relay bypass:
I bypassed it to get it started before the WSM arrives. The relay on it may be incorrect, damaged or wired incorrectly. It wasn't passing 12v to the starter in neutral/neutral with the clutch in.

Once the WSM arrives I will be restoring the factory wiring with the correct relay and wire colors to match the wiring diagram. That is assuming that this tractor was diagnosed incorrectly by the previous owner and the engine has life left in her!

Thank you for your help and concern!

 

[thepumpguysc]

Loosen ALL the lines AT the injectors at the SAME TIME.. spin the engine until you get fuel squirting out & tighten..
You can remove the GP's & test w/ some alligator clips & tractor/car battery.. + to the top of the GP & - to the body..
They will/should get CHERRY RED in SECONDS so be careful.. DONT TOUCH THE TIP.. if you have more bad than good, replace the whole set..

 

[tony45]

you will want to check to make sure your butterfly is open on your air intake,on my tractor it is a cable shutoff and if it does that I have to use needle nose pliers to open it.

 

[grateful4]

thepumpguysc:
Will be testing the glow plugs in an hour or two and follow up.

tony45:
I will check to make sure the butterfly is open.

Thank you guys!

 

[kirkawilson]

The 'knock' sound and low-oil running mentioned by previous owner sounds suspect. The knock could have been a valve push rod or cylinder connection that would disable one cylinder and force it to try and run on 2 cylinders. Might check exhaust manifold to see if one port is wet. Or pull oil pan to check for parts.

 

[grateful4]

Tested glow plugs with multimeter.

All 3 glow plugs had a resistance of more than 2.0 ohms, had one linger at 0.9 for a few seconds but was unable to replicate the reading. I believe I did it correctly but I am not 100% positive.

I ordered 3 new glow plugs and will them pick up tomorrow. NGK 7464 for $11 each.

--------------------
Trying to attach a photo of the air filter and hose.



Where is the butterfly located?

------------------

I will check the exhaust manifold and look for a wet port.
Thank you Kirk!

I appreciate the suggestions and advice!

 

[vvanders]

Everything I've read about fords of that era is they really like to be glowed. Our 1500 won't start unless I give it 30s+ of left turn key. 80F or 30F, doesn't matter.

Once the engine is warm it'll restart but the fact that your getting compression + smoke sounds like it may just not be warming up enough. If I get impatient and don't glow long enough I get a similar result.

 

[grateful4]

Replaced all 3 glow plugs.
Blew out air filter.
Ran jumper cables from truck to tractor.

Still will not start. Here is a video.

I think the starter may not be strong enough to turn over the engine?

Ford 1710 won't start - YouTube

 

[vvanders]

Great video, that makes everything pretty clear. Smoke looks much like our 1500 starting, usually when I underglow I get lighter smoke so it seems like your getting compression and ignition.

How's the throttle linkage look? I wonder if the governor isn't givning it enough fuel or the like.

 

[grateful4]

Thank you vvanders!

Here is a photo I took of the replaced glow plugs and you can see the throttle linkage where it attaches to the kiki injector pump.



The linkage appears stock but I do not have the operators manual with starting procedure. Do you think the linkage may need adjustment?

Now the injection pump did not have the proper plug when I purchased it... the previous owner said it was spitting oil from that hole there and he only had a plastic screw in it. I adapted an M12 (British metric) with a plug and filled it with approx 4 oz 15W/40.

I've tried pumping the throttle while turning it over and nearly had it started a few times.. felt as if air was in the lines. Since then I have bled the lines at the fuel filter, the injection pump and at the injectors.

I appreciate all the help! WSM arrives friday!

 

[vvanders]

You'll get it figured out, may just take a bit of time.

One thing to try is starting at wide open throttle and if you get it running just ease it back as rpms rise, our 1500 seems to like starting at full throttle easier.

The other thing it could possibly be is bad timing. If the injectors are not firing near TDC it could be working against your starter.

Turning over speed looked okay to me, I don't know an easy way to check the timing on the 1710 however.

 

[Dave M7040]

I am not convinced your glow plugs are working even though new. Sometimes people make changes and don't understand that some GP's are wired in series and some in parallel.

Your GP indicator never seems to glow red hot.

Lets wait until your WSM arrives re GP wiring. I repeat don't go applying 12 volts to a glow plug!!!!

Looking at the side photo of your engine which shows the GP's, there is a heavy black wire connected to the GP's at the cylinder closest to the radiator.
Where does that wire go or come from.

I am not impressed with your starter but before condemning it, post some photos of the battery cables and the ground connection to the engine. A boost will deal with a bad battery but not poor cables and connections.

Dave M7040

 

[vvanders]

I am not convinced your glow plugs are working even though new. Sometimes people make changes and don't understand that some GP's are wired in series and some in parallel.

Your GP indicator never seems to glow red hot.

...

Just for reference I've never seen our GP indicator *ever* glow at all on our 1500.

Here's the wiring diagram from the 15xx/17xx/19xx service manual I have if that helps:





Let me see if I can dig up the timing section and will upload that as well if GP look okay.

 

[vvanders]

Here's the section on timing + diagrams. There's a part on the previous page about getting to the gears, if you need that as well let me know.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Hold a volt meter on the GP's & turn the key to activate.. You'll find out REAL QUICK if you got power..
TOW START the tractor.. the black smoke is telling me you have fuel.. not rollin fast enough.. or boost off another car..

 

[Dave M7040]

Am I seeing teflon tape on the new GP's?..

According to the posted wiring diagram you have parallel wired GP's which depend upon a good ground with the block to heat up.

The teflon may be blocking the necessary ground for the GP's

The GP indicator is wired in series with the GP's so no current going to ground through the GP's means not curreent to heat up the indicator.

Power in the switch flows from terminal 30, to 19 in the heat position and then to the GP's through 17.

Just having voltage at the GP's means nothing is there is no ground.

Dave M7040

 

[grateful4]

vvanders;

My manual came in this morning! Those diagrams appear identical. Thank you very much for taking the time to upload those diagrams!

I am comparing the diagram to the tractor wiring right now. If I can get the indicator to glow I will let you know. I can feel heat on it when I hover my hand over the indicator.

pumpguysc;

I will put the new multimeter on the glow plugs. When you pull start what gear and speed do you have it in when you drop the clutch?

DaveM7040;

I have headed your warnings thus far and I appreciate them! I will be checking for a good solid ground today. The current ground is attached to the loader mount which is attached to the chasis... I've cleaned it but it may be not be a proper ground? Similiar to grounding to the front axle?

Thank you all for your caring support!

 

[grateful4]

Also this tractor is a Sept, 1985.