Front Loader Not Moving at All.

[NucciFL]

Hey Everyone, new member here, I need some help with one of my tractors so I figured I'd give it a shot here.

I just picked up an older IH 444 (Europe version, maybe 1970ish) with a IH 1501 loader on it from one of my family members. The loader wasn't working and since I don't have too much experience with hydraulics I decided to remove the pump and bring it to a place to inspect it and they told me it was bad. This tractor does not have the front mounted pump, it has a dual pump that runs the rear hydraulics and the power steering and tee's off the rear supply line to feed the control valve for the loader. I ordered an aftermarket one from Ebay (Dynamatic Limited UK C11.4/8.2L05699) and installed it on the tractor. The power steering works and the rear lift arms work but the loader still didn't work......

Since I drained the fluid while replacing the pump I put some fresh fluid in the hydraulic reservoir and the transmission, I used that Traveller premium fluid that meet the IHB6 and new MS-1209 spec. I removed the line connected to the control valve (Zexel 37213) that's teed off the rear supply line and the hydraulic fluid was coming out with some pressure. It appeared whiter/foamy and thicker than the typical hydraulic fluid, not sure if it was the air that was making it whiter/foamy....So I assume this means the control valve is getting fluid from the pump? I loosened a few fittings on the cylinders and used the control valve and the fluid would come out the fittings, not really spray out just drain out. I read on this forum about removing the rear caps on the control valve so I did that and everything looked clean and normal. I'm pretty sure the control has a float option if that makes any difference. I even tapped the control valve a few times with a hammer to see if maybe something was stuck in there but the FEL does not move at all

So I'm at a loss as to what to look at next. If you have any suggestions at all I'd love to hear them.

Thank you!

 

[Dave M7040]

Hey Everyone, new member here, I need some help with one of my tractors so I figured I'd give it a shot here.

I just picked up an older IH 444 (Europe version, maybe 1970ish) with a IH 1501 loader on it from one of my family members. The loader wasn't working and since I don't have too much experience with hydraulics I decided to remove the pump and bring it to a place to inspect it and they told me it was bad. This tractor does not have the front mounted pump, it has a dual pump that runs the rear hydraulics and the power steering and tee's off the rear supply line to feed the control valve for the loader. I ordered an aftermarket one from Ebay (Dynamatic Limited UK C11.4/8.2L05699) and installed it on the tractor. The power steering works and the rear lift arms work but the loader still didn't work......

Since I drained the fluid while replacing the pump I put some fresh fluid in the hydraulic reservoir and the transmission, I used that Traveller premium fluid that meet the IHB6 and new MS-1209 spec. I removed the line connected to the control valve (Zexel 37213) that's teed off the rear supply line and the hydraulic fluid was coming out with some pressure. It appeared whiter/foamy and thicker than the typical hydraulic fluid, not sure if it was the air that was making it whiter/foamy....So I assume this means the control valve is getting fluid from the pump? I loosened a few fittings on the cylinders and used the control valve and the fluid would come out the fittings, not really spray out just drain out. I read on this forum about removing the rear caps on the control valve so I did that and everything looked clean and normal. I'm pretty sure the control has a float option if that makes any difference. I even tapped the control valve a few times with a hammer to see if maybe something was stuck in there but the FEL does not move at all

So I'm at a loss as to what to look at next. If you have any suggestions at all I'd love to hear them.

Thank you!

If you are going to be doing any hydraulic work on your tractor, you need some basic tools otherwise you are needlessly changing components hoping for a solution.
Since you acknowledge no hydraulic experience, I must give you this caution information as serious personal injury can occur with high pressure fluid injected through your skin.

This hydraulic pressure gauge with a matching quick connect to suit what is on your tractor will cost about $30

To measure your system pressure, remove a hose and plug in the pressure gauge. Run tractor at full rpm, direct flow to the gauge and read the needle. 2 seconds to get the reading and then release the control sending pressure to the gauge.

Before ordering your new FEL valve you should have gotten some advice. You should know, not be guessing, if the new valve has a float position for the lift arm cylinders. Most owners want this feature. Your small hydraulic pump could benefit from a valve for the bucket having a regeneration feature. You have bought a new pump and a new valve at considerable expense and still have a non working loader.

What is the flow rating for your new valve. The wrong inclination is to order one with a high flow rating. Likely your pump is rated for 6 to 8 gpm at most.
A FEL valve rated for 12 to 15 gpm means you loose the ability to have fine control over the loader.

How many hydraulic lines were connected to the old valve, 6 or 7.

I suggest you make a simple sketch showing the pump and its suction and output line, the loader valve and its In line and Tank or Out line, a power beyond line if present, and then the 3 pt hitch lines

You cannot just TEE off on supply line to feed another valve. You need power beyond.

Your system is an open center one and the flow will just go through the unused device's control valve to the reservoir.

Dave M7040

 

[mddorange]

:welcome:
To the TBN forum Nucci. We are glad that you joined.

Looks like Dave gave you some good advice.

What helps people who are trying to help you are pictures of all your connections.

 

[NucciFL]

Dave M7040 - Thank you for the response.

I do not have quick connects on the lines, I'm assuming I can get a similar gauge with just threads and screw that into the lines as well?

Also, I only bought a new hydraulic pump not a new valve and I only bought the exact replacement pump after the hydraulic company that I took it to told me it was bad and the parts were pretty much not available to rebuild it. After I installed the pump and the loader did not work I figured I would need some more help, which then led me here. And I'm only guessing on the float option on the existing valve based on some things I read on this site.

The existing valve has 6 lines connected to it. 4 that go to the cylinders, 1 that's from the Teed line, and the thick orange one that comes from the tanks. The pump is rated about 9 gpm.

Regarding your comment about you cannot just TEE off a supply line, this may be absolutely correct but since this was a family members for years I've been around it a handful of times and have seen the loader work as is.

Thanks

 

[woodlandfarms]

In my very limited experience FEL Valves will fail but still kinda work. But lift cylinders will fail an not work at all.

As dave said, before you go buying parts that will be worth more than your tractor you need to isolate the issue. Start at the pump with the pressure guage (and you need one, just because oil is flowing out does not mean it has the correct pressure). And then you follow the hoses, eventually you will find what is letting you down.

Also, not sure of your system but you could have air in it.

And the garden hose... not going to even go there.

 

[KubotainNH]

You for sure need some new hoses. Do check the release valve on the loader control setup. It should be under one of the caps on the left side of that middle picture. I got my tractor cheap because the loader stopped working, the release valve was stuck open. I cleaned out the bore and ball bearing and it's been working fine since 2005.

 

[Dave M7040]

Dave M7040 - Thank you for the response.

I do not have quick connects on the lines, I'm assuming I can get a similar gauge with just threads and screw that into the lines as well?

Also, I only bought a new hydraulic pump not a new valve and I only bought the exact replacement pump after the hydraulic company that I took it to told me it was bad and the parts were pretty much not available to rebuild it. After I installed the pump and the loader did not work I figured I would need some more help, which then led me here. And I'm only guessing on the float option on the existing valve based on some things I read on this site.

The existing valve has 6 lines connected to it. 4 that go to the cylinders, 1 that's from the Teed line, and the thick orange one that comes from the tanks. The pump is rated about 9 gpm.

Regarding your comment about you cannot just TEE off a supply line, this may be absolutely correct but since this was a family members for years I've been around it a handful of times and have seen the loader work as is.

Thanks
The red line is a low pressure return to the tank from the FEL valve.
Step 1 is to go to the Tee and remove the 3 pt from it and either connect the two remaining hoses together or plug the 3 pt outlet on the Tee which will send all pressure to the FEL

If the FEL now works we are on the way to a solution.

Dave M7040

 

[Leejohn]

See if there is a lever on the left side by the seat, if so move it. That might make the loader work but not the 3pt.

 

[Dave M7040]

See if there is a lever on the left side by the seat, if so move it. That might make the loader work but not the 3pt.

Leejohn's comment made me take a closer look at the owner's photos.

Does this valve change anything such as make the loader work when turned the opposite way and what does the lettering say.

Is this the TEE?

Dave M7040

 

[hturner12]

If your hyd fluid is white foamy that air. I had a similar problem but mine was steering also. I did a fluid filter change did not help much. While waiting on my pressure gage to come in I started checking fittings. Found the main pressure line on the pump, two clamps on suction, one or two fittings on control valve loose. Tightened everything up fixed problem. Loose suction lines will suck air in but may not let fluid out. If you have a cylinder that the rod is broken or leaking internaly nothing will happen, but you eould have to have one bad on curl and lift. You may be using the wrong hydraulic fluid. Something that old may need 303 hyd fluid.

 

[NucciFL]

Thank you to everyone for responding.

I ordered a pressure gauge and it should be here tomorrow, I'll sketch up a diagram and label all the pressure readings and post it. Just curious, what sort of pressure reading should I be expecting?

I have already tried to adjust the knobs below the seat, one is an isolating valve to reduce the flow to the 3pt but it does not do anything no matter how I turn it. The knob in the picture says Open and shut. There is a valve on the opposite side that's says slow and fast. The orange valve that you point to with the large arrow is not the tee. The hose clamp line is the suction from the tank to the pump. The pump then has 2 outlet lines, one goes to that orange valve and directs hydraulic fluid to the power steering (you cant see the hoses but you can see my white arrow, below that are 2 hoses). The other line from the pump goes directly back to the 3pt and that's the line that has the Tee that goes to the FEL control valve. Great idea on removing the tee and directing all the fluid to the control, I'll try that as well and see what happens, If I have time maybe I'll try to get some pressure readings this way as well.

The fluid I purchased meet the old IH spec of B6, while I'm sure that TSC fluid isn't the best that's pretty much all we got in my small town.

Thank you very much

 

[hturner12]

That what I use. Remember they dont make anything , they just have reputable manufacturers brand stuff. Only reason I mentioned it was the age of the tractor. Alot of old stuff and heavy equipment use 303 fluid. If you notice they put it on sale all the time.

 

[KWentling]

I can't see how that can work the way it is plumbed. Putting a tee in the pressure line of an open center system will only operate the function that requires the least pressure to operate, in other words the flow goes the path of least resistance. If you put a load on the 3-point, will the loader work? The way this is plumbed, I can't see how the 3-point can lift a load either, but if you can make the 3-point load greater than the loader, then the loader should work. The proper way to plumb that would be with a power beyond loader valve. Also, there appears to be no pressure relief valve on that loader valve.

 

[KubotainNH]

The ones with the hose clamps are probably just the low pressure return lines. I don't see how you can T a pressure line to run two items because when not in use those items are just dumping the fluid to the return so no pressure.

 

[NucciFL]

Quick Update on this....

I was able to test the pressure on the two lift cylinders that raise the arms and I got zero, no matter how I moved the handle on the control valve. I wanted to test the pressure of the line going into the control valve but I didn't have the correct fitting since it was a 1/2" jic threads, I couldn't find it locally so I ordered one and should have it soon.

I got everything all plumbed over to direct the fluid straight to the control valve and as things normally happen in my life the battery died. I pulled the truck over and was trying to jump it then burned out the solenoid......got that coming too...

Anyways, I'll post back once I get it running again and can register some pressure readings. Thanks again

 

[Dave M7040]

Quick Update on this....

I was able to test the pressure on the two lift cylinders that raise the arms and I got zero, no matter how I moved the handle on the control valve. I wanted to test the pressure of the line going into the control valve but I didn't have the correct fitting since it was a 1/2" jic threads, I couldn't find it locally so I ordered one and should have it soon.

I got everything all plumbed over to direct the fluid straight to the control valve and as things normally happen in my life the battery died. I pulled the truck over and was trying to jump it then burned out the solenoid......got that coming too...

Anyways, I'll post back once I get it running again and can register some pressure readings. Thanks again

Just a word of caution. it is very easy to inadvertently dead head the hydraulic pump and destroy it in a second.

Before the pressure test, remove the line from the pump where it goes into the loader valve and direct the open end into a clean bucket.

Before worrying about pressure, first determine if you have flow. This test does not require any fittings.

Little to no flow tells you there is a problem. A little flow can raise hydraulic pressures as filling up the pressure gauge requires almost no fluid.
Your tractor is not going to operate with good pressure and little flow

Dave M7040

 

[flingwing1969]

Quick Update on this....

I was able to test the pressure on the two lift cylinders that raise the arms and I got zero, no matter how I moved the handle on the control valve. I wanted to test the pressure of the line going into the control valve but I didn't have the correct fitting since it was a 1/2" jic threads, I couldn't find it locally so I ordered one and should have it soon.

I got everything all plumbed over to direct the fluid straight to the control valve and as things normally happen in my life the battery died. I pulled the truck over and was trying to jump it then burned out the solenoid......got that coming too...

Anyways, I'll post back once I get it running again and can register some pressure readings. Thanks again

Sorry, but I'm laughing with you, not at you. These things certainly try one's patience. Kind of like dropping a small part, how in the world do they almost always manage to bounce to an inaccessible location?

 

[flingwing1969]

Just a word of caution. it is very easy to inadvertently dead head the hydraulic pump and destroy it in a second.

Before the pressure test, remove the line from the pump where it goes into the loader valve and direct the open end into a clean bucket.

Before worrying about pressure, first determine if you have flow. This test does not require any fittings.

Little to no flow tells you there is a problem. A little flow can raise hydraulic pressures as filling up the pressure gauge requires almost no fluid.
Your tractor is not going to operate with good pressure and little flow

Dave M7040

Good advice.

 

[NucciFL]

Just a word of caution. it is very easy to inadvertently dead head the hydraulic pump and destroy it in a second.

Before the pressure test, remove the line from the pump where it goes into the loader valve and direct the open end into a clean bucket.

Before worrying about pressure, first determine if you have flow. This test does not require any fittings.

Little to no flow tells you there is a problem. A little flow can raise hydraulic pressures as filling up the pressure gauge requires almost no fluid.
Your tractor is not going to operate with good pressure and little flow

Dave M7040

Actually I already did this very thing, sorry, maybe I should of said something. It was coming out at what seemed like a good rate, maybe relatable to a garden hose?

 

[NucciFL]

Sorry, but I'm laughing with you, not at you. These things certainly try one's patience. Kind of like dropping a small part, how in the world do they almost always manage to bounce to an inaccessible location?

yeah, this is the story of my life. haha