Ford 4610, Starter Stuck Engaged

[ETpilot]

I went to start the engine and saw smoke coming from starter area. Visual inspection did not reveal anything. So I tried starting again and could hear starter still engaged. The solenoid may have stuck in the on position. I cut off the fuel to the engine but starter kept engine turning over. I had to disconnect the battery to stop the action. So now I have to remove the starter. The problem is I have the FEL attached and in the way making removal a bit harder.

So my question is, will I do some damage if I start the engine in this condition in order to slide the FEL about 3 feet to give me better access? With a friend's help I can do this in a minute or less. My fear is will I do any damage to the teeth on the flywheel? Not sure on this course of action. After the rain passes I'm going to test just the motor to see if the bendix is still engaged. Anyone have any helpful ideas on this problem? Thanks.

 

[Texasmark]

The solenoid is the switch that applies power to the starter. It can't run or continue to run if the solenoid is open period. Searching the root cause, 3 things come into play:

1. Starter switch has metal filings internally which provide a path across normally open contacts (On not Start ignition position) closing the circuit, energizing the solenoid and keeping power applied to the starter....good possibility on high usage tractor (worn out switch) sitting out in the elements. Or the start power wire accidentally is shorted to a source of battery voltage.......very rare if possible.

2. Starter solenoid mechanically jams internally......very rare if at all!

3. Starter solenoid has had enough usage to the point where the surface area of the disc to post interface is pitted, thus reducing the surface area to carry the 100-200 amperes your starter uses to start. The longer you grind on the starter the more apt this is to be the case. Think about stick welding for example and what amperage you have your welder set on and think that you are welding steel, a good, not excellent conductor like copper.

The surface area that touches between the plates and posts fuses together and can't separate when the energizing solenoid is de energized so power remains on your starter.

 

[ovrszd]

I wouldn't try running the engine with it engaged. I'd suffer thru the removal process with FEL in the way. I'd also try to remove the solenoid from the starter and investigate that as a problem first.

I put a new starter on my 3910 few months ago. It "stuck on" the first time I used it, had to remove battery cable. Removed solenoid and cleaned the plunger area and it hasn't done it since. Not positive whether I fixed a problem or if it was merely coincidence.

Good luck with this and post the results.

 

[ETpilot]

Thanks for the replies. I've been giving this some more thought. I'm in agreement with ovrszd, leave it as is. The problem with looking at the solenoid is that the fuel filter/water separator is in the way. I'll have to take a closer look to see if that route is doable. This starter has a bolt buried deep between the engine and the starter. Have to use a long extension to reach it. Having the FEL arm in the way makes it a bit harder. I'll have to wait until a weather system passes thru and all gets dry again. Maybe sometime tomorrow. I have all the wires disconnected. Just 3 bolts and it is out. Yea yea.

Thanks again.

 

[ETpilot]

The surface area that touches between the plates and posts fuses together and can't separate when the energizing solenoid is de energized so power remains on your starter.

This is what I think may have happened. I'm going to look at the wiring diagram and see if there is another failure point for this system. Thanks.

 

[ovrszd]

The starter is a total PITA to remove/install. I replaced mine while I had the Injector Pump off so that gave me a bit more room.

My old starter required hitting the key several times to get it to engage, it would just click.

Big weather system, raining up here today too.

 

[RickB]

If the starter still motors, let it run with the fuel shut off so the tractor won't start. Use the hydraulics while cranking to raise the loader. Prop safely.

 

[Birdhunter1]

Start the tractor then disconnect the battery while it is running, I believe it is the same type of everything as my 3910 and it shouldn't need a battery to run.

Then remove loader, and shut it off where you want to work on it.

 

[ovrszd]

Start the tractor then disconnect the battery while it is running, I believe it is the same type of everything as my 3910 and it shouldn't need a battery to run.

Then remove loader, and shut it off where you want to work on it.

By golly I think you are right. My 3910 uses a manual fuel shutoff. Sure it would run with battery unhooked. Guess only other issue would be if the Bendix would disengage???

 

[ETpilot]

Well the weather system disintegrated North of me and the rest passed South of me. The afternoon turned out nice; cloudy, cool and it dried fast.

So a few tests. First I tested the starter motor. It ran good not hung up. Next I tested the solenoid, two hits with the test switch. First ok, second time it hung up. I then tested the motor again and it wanted to turn the engine. So decision made, take it off as is. That challenge was not too bad. I removed the battery n battery tray. Using a long extension, a swivel fitting, socket and a piece of coat hanger wire that buried bolt came out fairly easy. Tomorrow 2 bolts and it is out. A couple of pictures. First the access between the FEL top and bottom rails. The starter sits below and behind the fuel filter and separator which is just visible at bottom of picture. Second is the bolt visible below the metal rod. You can't get at the bolt from this direction. You have to come in from the front.

RickB I don't think your suggestion would work for me. The FEL lift cylinder would be in my way. Will check it when I get this running again. Thanks.

Birdhunter1 your suggestion is what I had in mind. However when it hung up again I decided to just work as is. Turns out it was not too bad. Thanks.

 

[ovrszd]

Good to hear that the starter motor itself is good. Sounds like you might get by with a cleanup of the solenoid?? Hope so!!!!

I can see how much of a pain it is with the FEL on.....

 

[RickB]

I'm not sure what loader you have, but I've used the starter to raise loaders and backhoes off the ground for decades. Using discretion with cranking times, the method works well.

 

[ETpilot]

I'm not sure what loader you have, but I've used the starter to raise loaders and backhoes off the ground for decades. Using discretion with cranking times, the method works well.

Thanks. Will keep that technique in mind. Will check the raised loader
when I get the tractor running. Maybe take a picture for future reference.

 

[ETpilot]

Thought I'd update this thread. I removed the starter and did a bench check of the starter. It checked out good. A check of the wiring revealed a bad fusible link. So I had the starter bench checked by a motor repair company. The starter checked out good. I checked with Ford for the fusible link and they did not know what I was talking about. It didn't show in their database. So I ordered the link with O'Reilly Auto Parts, will pick up tomorrow.

So the problem was the switch or the wiring. I had a chance to troubleshoot today after a bad storm we had yesterday. This starting system and alternator is protected only by fusible link. The links are not shown in the wiring diagram. So I started testing power wires first and then looked at the switch. The switch has 4 positions with the 4th position being the start position. Rigging my test tool I found that the solenoid trigger would power up in position 3. Aha, so the starter stayed engaged. I had to remove a panel for access to the switch. I then saw the problem. A wire, part of the neutral safety switch, had worn and was making contact with a metal tube. This provided the ground that allowed the solenoid to stay engaged. So simple fix. Tests show system is working normal now. Should have it running tomorrow.

Only thing I can't figure out is why the starter stayed engaged when I turned the key to off. Will see how this fix works out. I use a neat tester that I make. It allows to test continuity, voltage and polarity. It uses a horn so I just test and listen for the horn. Works great when working solo.

Thought I'd include pictures of my local airport. Storm damaged hangar but surprisingly aircraft not damaged. It took a while before they let us into the airport to check our things. It was an interesting stormy day.

 

[Texasmark]

If no visible external reason for still starting when in OFF and your trying it once and it shut off and again and it locked up again smells like internal shorts in the switch...since you now know the solenoid is ok. Over time the metallic parts make a path across the contacts and after enough metal is deposited, and enough moisture and crud you have a short where you don't want one. Fix would be a new switch.....usually pricy.

 

[RickB]

A new key switch is pretty cheap when compared to burning a tractor or a tractor and a barn to the ground. Off the top of my head I think I sell OEM key switches for +-$40.

Remove a battery cable when the tractor is unattended until you get this sorted out.

 

[ETpilot]

Fixing the electrical fault that I pictured has fixed the problem. Tested the system many times and all is normal again. I need to study the wiring diagram to see how this happened. I still am cautious about the switch. As I use the tractor I listen and monitor the instrument panel to see if all is still good. I'm looking for a battery disconnect switch so I can deactivate the electrical system if needed. The switch may possibly be a problem but testing the system and now using the tractor has not resulted in another fault. I will just monitor it for now.

RickB I raised the loader to see what access I have to the engine. It would not work for replacing the starter. The lift cylinder is in the way plus 4 hydraulic hoses hang in front of the starter. A good suggestion just did not work for me. I took a picture with loader raised to have as a future reference.

Thanks all for the replies and suggestions.

 

[Texasmark]

O'Reiley's and HF sell them, about $6 bucks.

 

[RickB]

O'Reiley's and HF sell them, about $6 bucks.

And yet you complain that they are pricey? Really?

I'll bet for $6 they don't plug and play like the OEM switch. But whatever.

 

[ETpilot]

Well I used the tractor all day today. No fault of any kind. Just to be safe I am going to do an airplane mod to it. Starter contractors, solenoid, on airplanes tend to stick too. So an indicator light is wired in the system. You just monitor the light during start up. I am going to do the same for the tractor. Just a start up indicator. The battery cut off switch will be the master switch to shut the system down if there is any fault. Should work fine. This tractor did not have a parking brake indicator light. I added a flashing light to let me know the parking brake is set. So I will make a 2 light indicator panel and add it to the tractor. Should have it completed next week.

Here is the access you have to the stater once the FEL is removed. Much better working space.