PTO generator problems with electical approval. Pls help

gogojuice · Mar 28, 2017

So.. I purchased a 16 KW 50 amp PTO for my tractor.

It was all hooked up by a professional to the panel using an interlock.
EAT-BR2A Cutler Hammer Generator interlock kit 15 2 Amp BR Panel LISTED | eBay

I asked to make sure everything would be ok prior to paying for the install. I was told which kit I should order.
Now I get this. (from the ESA)

Couple things regarding this set up.
1) The UL file number is coming up with nothing - E113887. No search results.
2) The Document indicates that only professional people shall have access to this device. An amateur should never.... anyway This is not something I will approve with a residential domain.

Would suggest an approved Transfer system in place.
Regards,

What are my options?
I'm looking for a whole house setup. Apparently I have to change this soon or they will disconnect my power!

BTW.. I live in Ontario.

Thanks

mcfarmall · Mar 28, 2017

Sounds like the professional didn't know the local electrical code.

gogojuice · Mar 28, 2017

Yep.

Now the company says that they can install a manual transfer switch, but I will only be able to run a couple of circuits. Kind of defeats getting a generator for the whole house, no? There must be something that can be done?

Thanks in advance for help

wolf515 · Mar 28, 2017

I am not sure of what your code is, however my local code does not allow a retrofit interlock. I was able to contact the manufacturer of my load center and purchase a factory installed interlock on a new front panel. The inspector for my location was not worried about the concept of the interlock, they were more worried about proper installation and proper location.

One issue they had that made them require the manufacturer not a retrofit was a person did not properly align the interlock. So therefore it did not function as designed.

Perhaps you can find a new panel with a factory installed interlock. Like the previous person it sounds like the original installer wanted to cut a corner and not do the work to code or correctly.

Rock knocker · Mar 28, 2017

In the US, with a supply of 50A I think you are prohibited by code from installing whole house transfer. The transferred circuits must be appropriately sized for the connected generator. Old style analog load shedding is not allowed by code.

PILOON · Mar 28, 2017

For to legally meet Cdn norms it would need ULC (C=Cdn) stamp.
Often exactly same but just a paperwork exercise ($$) that many figure if good enough for USA then it should be good for CDN.
Often is also the case with engineer approvals as well.
Shucks they even get into provincial squabbles. ((approved in Ontario still needs a Quebec eng. signature)
Would seem that borders influence engineering principles no matter where you studied.
It is all really self protection and nothing to do with cash grabbing (LOL)
EGO's running wild.

Provide the same data for USA UL and for sure the C will require some additional test simply to let you know that they are in control.
It is all about your safety you understand. (and not a cash crab)

My take is if UL is OK, then screw them all and go for it.

gogojuice · Mar 28, 2017

Thanks for the responses.
I'm not electrically inclined, hence that is why I hired a professional.
Now it seems I should have hired the local apprentice or the guy next door lol.

So if I have to change it.... what are my options??

Rock knocker · Mar 29, 2017

What is ESA?

Rock knocker · Mar 29, 2017

The interlock you purchased will work fine as a back fed source for your whole house panel. The only issue is that you will be required to shed loads, something all AHJs loathe. A formal transfer panelor a sub panel sized for your load will also work.

Industrial Toys · Mar 29, 2017

It's simple. They don't recognise the certification as it doesn't have Canadian certification. I'm guessing, to get that, would cost as much as what a manufacturer would pay.

It's like, we have a whole system of Government that determines vehicle safety but at the end of the day it's the US that makes these rules, and the only thing we REALLY insist on is that the speedo reads KMS!

My friend works with ESA all the time and they are a major pain in the butt! Every inspector sees things differently.

Rock knocker · Mar 30, 2017

Since no one will come right out and tell me what ESA stands for I'll have to guess that ESA is the inspection agency and this is a permitted job.

I don't think any interlocks are fully UL rated. If that is what is being required you'll need a trasfer switch.

gogojuice · Mar 30, 2017

Sorry,

ESA = Electrical Safety Authority. (Inspector)

https://www.geninterlock.com/images/layout/Recognition_Letter_84974_r1.pdf

Here is the UL rating. (UL67)

The inspector couldn't find anything on the device so automatically discounted it. It is being resent with the info.. he should of found.. and is looking at it now.
I don't have much hope as he was so quick to discount it without researching it.

Rock knocker · Apr 1, 2017

gogojuice said:
Sorry,

ESA = Electrical Safety Authority. (Inspector)

https://www.geninterlock.com/images/layout/Recognition_Letter_84974_r1.pdf

Here is the UL rating. (UL67)

The inspector couldn't find anything on the device so automatically discounted it. It is being resent with the info.. he should of found.. and is looking at it now.
I don't have much hope as he was so quick to discount it without researching it.

That letter basically says nothing. UL67 are the standards for electrical panel boards which must be met. The panel is then inspected and receives its UL rating seperately. That interlock has no UL rating, and even if it did, to be used as a recognized assembly with your Cutler panel the entire assembly would have to be inspected. The MET labratory recognition mark has the very same weight as the "Rock Knocker Recognition Mark", it is just something somebody said.

You asked your electrician to give you a hook up which was "OK". This he did, your interlock will work fine as long as you load shed when it is energized. But it certainly will never met CSA or UL rating, nor will it likely pass a inspection in your neck of the woods (although there are spots in the USA that would pass such an assemblage).

How much did the electrician charge you? Installation of that interlock should be about a ten minute job. You will now either need a real life transfer switch which will pass inspection, or cancell your inspection and make do with the interlock or a combination of the interlock and a subpanel.

Rock knocker · Apr 1, 2017

MET Labs is the anti-UL. From their website

25+ years ago, we broke the UL monopoly for product safety testing and certification in the United States.

So if an agency requires UL certification, and you get MET certs instead, then you're SOL

daybreak1998 · Apr 3, 2017

Howdy,
I believe you are using a 2nd hand manufactured part. It is not in the true UL approved system.

Did you notice the paperwork instructions with it? Was it a real Cutler-Hammer instructions?

Anyway. What you need to do. You need to purchase a real interlock from the manufacturer of your panel. If you have a Cutler-Hammer service panel, you will need to see if Cutler-Hammer makes a approved interlock. You would then have the proper certification to get approved.

Cutler-Hammer BR Panel interlock Kits Brochure

TractorGuy · Apr 3, 2017

A "whole house" system would require both a generator AND transfer switch that matches the capacity of your panel.

The 16kw rating on your generator is probably the peak or surge rating. Most homes will have 200 amp panels these days.

If you were planning to pull a permit you should have told the electrician that up front and had him pull the permit.

MAN IN BLACK · Apr 3, 2017

Rock knocker said:
What is ESA?

ELECTRICAL SAFETY AUTHORITY

daybreak1998 · Apr 3, 2017

Howdy,

UL and ULc are met by the manufacturer. You need to purchase a real Cutler-Hammer part. Not a copy.

TheMan419 · Apr 4, 2017

Have you contacted the electrician? Seems he should be involved in bringing the project to code at his cost. Unless you specified the parts and e just installed them.

We are in process of upgrading house to 200 amp service, installing gen panel and a bunch of other stuff.

Contractor pulls all permits and insures we pass inspection. If not they fix whatever is wrong at no additional cost to me.

RNeumann · Apr 6, 2017

daybreak1998 said:
Howdy,
I believe you are using a 2nd hand manufactured part. It is not in the true UL approved system.

Did you notice the paperwork instructions with it? Was it a real Cutler-Hammer instructions?

Anyway. What you need to do. You need to purchase a real interlock from the manufacturer of your panel. If you have a Cutler-Hammer service panel, you will need to see if Cutler-Hammer makes a approved interlock. You would then have the proper certification to get approved.

Cutler-Hammer BR Panel interlock Kits Brochure

This is it.

Calling an electrician to install a product the OP found on eBay is what they did. Now turning around and saying the device isn't approved- must be the electrician's fault- is misguided. It's a different story if you had called the electrician and asked them them to provide the parts as well.

Sounds like the eBay seller is misrepresenting something and the inspector caught it. Bummer.

The other option is a "whole house" transfer switch. The manual ones are under $1000 depending on the amps needed. 100a, 200a or rarely larger on a house.