Deutz not running well

[woodlandfarms]

OK, so been on the phone with Terry, and with Deutz, but wanted to post here.

Filled the tractor, and parked it outside late last week. We had a big cold / snow storm. Tried to start it yesterday, wouldn't catch, Put a heater on it and tried it again yesterday and it caught, but it runs terrible. Throttle does not work at all, it is blowing white smoke. Removed and cleaned strainer, removed and replaced fuel filter.

Deutz mechanic says he needs to see it, could run from a broken throttle spring to a injector / fuel pump issue to a slipped timing belt to....

My neighbor, who is s diesel mechanic, but not a Deutz mechanic, is coming up to take a look.

Thoughts

 

[ponytug]

White smoke is usually unburned diesel.
Causes:

• Blown injector
• Blown ring
• Blown head gasket

Given the history, I would start at the injectors. You might have had something freeze in the diesel in an injector, or have broken some crud loose in the cold snap. It is also possible that the fuel distributor got scratched up/blown for the same reason.

I once saw a garbage truck blown an injector at a green light. It was spectacular. Clouds of thick white smoke, worse than fog erupted as soon as the driver accelerated. The truck pulled over and died about half a block away.

I hope it is something simple.

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

Yeah, will pull injectors this weekend. Talked to the deutz guys, no one is sure but they have said I need to check the timing. I guess from what I hear Deutz can slip a tooth when it is really cold out.

 

[KWentling]

Definitely look at the injectors. I got to see a Deutz out of a Bobcat that had a stuck open injector at work this week. They thought the problem was going to be a head gasket.
Cylinder wall was scored, some of the top of the piston gone exposing the rings, Really ugly. Might not be your problem, but that is something I would want to avoid. Deutz parts are crazy expensive.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Holy Crap. Rozet? I am from Powell, I remember Rozet. All nothing of it. Still a nice area but.... Wasn't there one guy who owned the town?

ANyway, Lots going on. Was going to try and move the tractor but there is a new surprise. the temp has not been much above 25 so I can't get the brake release pump to work. That was a stunner for sure. So I will build a work tent round the machine where it is. Not happy but no choice in the matter. Rains are coming in a couple of days so the snow will wash away I hope.

As for KW, thanks I think. Just one more thing to freak me out. I am going to pull the injectors tomorrow, as well as check the fuel rack. I was going to do a whole teardown but I think I am going to try one thing at a time. Wanted to take the timing belt off tomorrow but I know if I do then I will never know what went sideways.

and yeah, Deutz parts make a Porsche look affordable. Friggin germans. These machines don't break but when they do grab your wallet and hang on.

 

[KWentling]

Holy Crap. Rozet? I am from Powell, I remember Rozet. All nothing of it. Still a nice area but.... Wasn't there one guy who owned the town?
Can't tell you if that was true. I'm actually closer to Gillette, but get my mail through Rozet. Rozet is basically a school, two bars, a post office and a few houses. Not much there.

As for KW, thanks I think. Just one more thing to freak me out. I am going to pull the injectors tomorrow, as well as check the fuel rack. I was going to do a whole teardown but I think I am going to try one thing at a time. Wanted to take the timing belt off tomorrow but I know if I do then I will never know what went sideways.

Your problem is probably timing or an injection pump problem, but I would certainly check the injectors for peace of mind. It's always good to try one thing at a time, and progress from cheap and easy to expensive and difficult.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So update. Injectors are out. Not the easiest task on the Deutz and I am a very novice mechanic. They were rusted in nice and tight. Had to go buy tools I did not have (DARN). Diesel Mechanic neighbor stopped by. Added fuel to the fire by suggesting I might just have an airleak in one of my hoses. ARGH. I guess if I had testing equipment it would be an easy thing.

This all said there is kinda a plan of action. Tomorrow I will take the injectors in and have them checked. I will also buy my timing belt kit (At a friggin premium, wanted to spend 1/2 as much by just ebaying it but I don't have the time to wait for it to show up). I am going to run all new fuel lines, and if the price is right, just replace the fuel deliver pump (the one with the strainer). I have an issue with rust in my fuel tank so I am going to get it sand blasted and coated . Also, I am pretty sure I will need a new battery. I also want to replace the engine wiring harness. Argh. Nearly a grand worth of parts. Argh Argh Argh.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So lots of news, none of it good.

Bought my belt kit, as well as the pins at a premium. I also bought a valve cover gasket. I also bought more of the 2mm hose, and some bigger fuel hose. Oh, and I had my injectors tested (they passed) and bought new copper rings for them.

So, got home and got the alignment pins in. So this is a bummer. The pins (after a bit of fighting which was my fault) went in no problem So this means my belt if fine. So we are back to fuel delivery issue.

My mechanic friend wants me to redo all the hoses running to the engine. He feels there is an air leak. I may do him one better and drain all the diesel and go buy 5 gallons fresh. But, the good news is it looks like the injectors are fine, and they timing belt if fine. So it looks like it is either a lift pump, bad fuel, or air geting into the fuel delivery system.

Tomorrow, another day.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So, end of day results. Still not running

Had to drive the wife this morning around as we had freezing ice and she had must see appointments. I did, however, pick up 5 gallons of fresh street diesel. (I use OffRoad and I am not sure if was summer rated or not).

Go home, drained the tank. OK, so my tank has had moisture issues and it shows. There is surface rust everywhere. In addition, I found an old plastic nozzle from a gas can laying in the bottom. Right now my focus is on getting running, but this is on my must fix list. We get alot of moisture up here in the PNW, but I am surprised Tazwell does not seal the tank. I am going to remove the tank, have it blasted and then seal it. Stupid to have this as an issue.

Anyway, I digress. I then ran all new fuel lines, both the return line as well as the intake. I found that I had overtightened the hose clamps (typical of me).

Finally, I hooked a long hose up from the fuel pump into a jar to see what the results where when I cranked.

Nothing. Not a thing. Just a dribble. I have a couple of questions for the Deutz guys that I will call on Tomorrow but I Guess my fuel pump is bad.

Now I have to figure out where to get the pump. I need to confirm, but the counter person at the Deutz parts place said $300. Ebay has them for $40. I think she looked up the wrong part.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Just curious, what machine and what engine you are talking about.

 

[cqaigy2]

Just curious, what machine and what engine you are talking about.

Tractor PowerTrac 1850

The one in his picture.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Are you talking like a 911 air cooled?

 

[woodlandfarms]

1011F 4 Cylinder. Non Turbo

 

[ponytug]

Carl-

A couple of thoughts:
Have you changed the inline pre filter, as well as the main fuel filter, and have you checked the outer screen filter on the low pressure pump? It seems to me that someone (you?) had it nearly totally clogged with rust and gunk at one time.

Have you pulled the hose between the low pressure fuel pump to see if you are getting fuel out of it?
If you are, you might need a new high pressure pump. Otherwise, if the pre filter is clean, you need a new low pressure pump. On my Deutz, there is about a 4" semicircle of fuel line that comes out of the low pressure pump and goes to the fuel filter that is an easy test point.

There is a low pressure fuel pump, about $40 on eBay and the high pressure pump 0414287013 / 04179431 for about $300, also on eBay. That might account for the two different prices that you were quoted.

You can get fuel caps with drying agent in them to help keep your fuel dry.

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

Peter, as always you are an amazing vat of information and I truely appreciate your responses.

Yup on the filters. First thing I dug into. Yes on the fuel (although I am going to reconfirm this morning, always double check cause I am an idiot.

I am heading to the deutz dealer in Portland. $69 which sucks but at least I will be up and running today and not waiting on shipping.

And I have to get my tank coated. Is yours coated? I am surprised that mine is just steel on the inside.

 

[ponytug]

I'm happy to help. You guys have helped me so much.

Just to clarify, are you getting diesel out of the first bit of tubing from the low pressure pump?

If you have a water block fuel filter on, that should get all of the water out of the tank pretty quickly, as the Deutz pumps more diesel than needed. The injectors use the intermediate pressure on the diesel to generate a small amount of high pressure diesel to inject, and the remainder (80%?) is returned to the tank. So, you pretty rapidly end up filtering all of the fuel in the tank, which has the side benefit of getting more of the particulates out of more of the fuel than a single pass filter would.

My diesel tank is just steel on the inside. That said, seven years later, there is no rust and the coarse filter in the tank is clean. My 1445 has four fuel filters;

• The coarse pre-filter in the fuel tank
• A small, clear prefilter in the fuel hose, just before the Deutz.
• The Deutz pre-filter before the low pressure pump.
• The spin on Deutz fuel filter.

I don't know if it helps. I do run SeaFoam in my diesel on a regular basis, and I store the diesel in 5 gallon plastic jerry cans. I keep no more than 15 gallons on site to try and keep the fuel fresh.

I do have a bit of black smoke coming out of the engine, but that's probably my bad. I need to check the valve clearances.

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

You have 2 more filters than mine. No filter in the tank, no filter inline. Just the deutz pre and the spin on.

Well, put on the new $70 fuel pump and no love. Video taped the engine sent it to the Deutz guys to see if they can analyze from a distance. At this point I don't know what to do. It ran when I parked it, It doesn't run now. And it smokes white smoke. I got it to catch, a couple of times when I realy warmed up the air, but the throttle had no response.

I think I am going to a movie.

 

[ponytug]

I am so sorry about all of this. I have to admit that I don't understand the white smoke and dribbling fuel, unless it is so cold that you are getting white smoke because nothing is igniting.

A few more ideas:

• If it is as cold as your mentioned, is it possible that you had summer diesel that gelled, or precipitated wax in your fuel lines? That would starve your engine of fuel. At this point, you might have to get everything pretty warm to get things melted. Oil pan heater? Hair dryer under a tarp?
• If the fuel is just dribbling, have you checked that the fuel solenoid is functional? And that it isn't plugged?
  (And that the wiring, and wiring harness are ok?)
• Also, you might want to check the throttle at the engine to make it works.
• Does your Deutz have a manual engine shutdown lever? If so, you might want to make sure that it is in the run position.

If those all check out, I'd be leaning toward something ugly like a blown gasket or ring set due to the cold.

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

All fuel related items have now been replaced, including the diesel. Your thoughts were my thoughts.

I am pulling the solenoid today as I get into the timing belt. I have had an issue all summer with the Deutz not shutting down (turn the key off, it still runs until I throttle down).

Throttle works and yeah, checked out all the rest as well

So here is where we are at. I am going to do a timing belt replacement today. As well, I will pop the valve cover and look for any goodies. If this does not solve it, then I guess it is a blowh head gasket.

In the end I will be a genius deutz man..... so glad for hands on training

Oh, here is an engine video if anyone wants to weigh in on the issue... I may post this in another section...

Deutz won't run - YouTube

 

[ponytug]

Thanks for the helpful video. It looks to me like you have one or two cylinders leaking and one or two catching. You can hear it and see it in the exhaust. "Dah, dah, bump, bump. Dah, dah, bump, bump." You can hear the fuel solenoid engage, though that doesn't mean the fuel passage ways are clear, either because of the solenoid not fully cycling or because the fuel passage is blocked.

The Deutz not shutting down when keyed off is a classic bad fuel solenoid. I would start there.

With the injectors out, did you check compression in the cylinders? If it isn't OK, you probably want to check your valves (and therefore push rods), when you change the timing belt. As you manually rotate the crankshaft watch that the correct valves cycle the same amount.

The hesitation in the exhaust may just be ignition / non-ignition, but it could also be valve leakage.

All the best,

Peter

All fuel related items have now been replaced, including the diesel. Your thoughts were my thoughts.

I am pulling the solenoid today as I get into the timing belt. I have had an issue all summer with the Deutz not shutting down (turn the key off, it still runs until I throttle down).

Throttle works and yeah, checked out all the rest as well

So here is where we are at. I am going to do a timing belt replacement today. As well, I will pop the valve cover and look for any goodies. If this does not solve it, then I guess it is a blowh head gasket.

In the end I will be a genius deutz man..... so glad for hands on training

Oh, here is an engine video if anyone wants to weigh in on the issue... I may post this in another section...

Deutz won't run - YouTube