Will this be tomorrow's transportation?

[adventure bob]

What we need here is the Mr Fusion...

 

[vvanders]

Sounds great, now start explaining all the inefficiency with turning that into electricity, transporting that electricity, stepping it up and down, putting it into a battery, taking it out, and converting it back to motion. You'll find the most efficient thing you can do is burn that fuel directly in an internal combustion engine in a car, high pressure diesels, out performing gas by far. Case closed. HS.

Are you sure about that? Let's look at it in terms of economics. Here in the PNW residential power is $9c/kWh. I get ~315wH/mi over the lifetime of my car. So it costs me a whopping 2.855c per mile I travel in electricity. Diesel down the road from me is currently $2.99/gal. That means you'd have to have a car that does 105 miles to the gallon before you can match my costs of running an EV.

Keep in mind this is before you factor in oil changes, brakes(less brake wear on an EV) and other maintenance(transmission, transfer case, etc) that come with an internal combustion engine. Even if you take the highest prices in the US(20c/kWh) you'd still have to hit 47mpg to equal an EV. Did I mention that an EV can do this while also making over 450hp?

Heck, right now it costs me more in tires prices w/ new tires @ 40k than all the electricity that I've spent since we bought the car.

I fully admit that I'm biased but I challenge anyone to take a spin in an EV and not be at least a little impressed.

 

[vvanders]

VV, I think your misreading the report and comparing apples to balloons. The import export report you cited, is a sales report; pure and simple. There's no relationship there that would indicate were dependent on foreign energy. However what we actually consume to generate energy would show dependence, and even if you don't like Canada in the numbers, energy generation, not just gas production, over 50% of power generation in the US is from truly domestic sources. Again the reason we buy oil from others is strategic and in no way should be considered dependency. Dependency would imply no other option. If I'm insulin dependent I cant just stop; I'm dependent. If consider the fact the geological fact that after Russia we have the largest reserves of oil in the world, you may reconsider the word dependent. Again strategic economic decision to use other peoples natural resources before our own.

That's fair, I should have phrased it as "economically dependent". Even though we produce a lot external prices still have a impact on what we pay. Where electricity gives you the option to move to other sources that aren't tied to a global market(hydro, nuclear, solar or wind) which can insulate us from outside factors.

 

[MossRoad]

Are you sure about that? Let's look at it in terms of economics. Here in the PNW residential power is $9c/kWh. I get ~315wH/mi over the lifetime of my car. So it costs me a whopping 2.855c per mile I travel in electricity. Diesel down the road from me is currently $2.99/gal. That means you'd have to have a car that does 105 miles to the gallon before you can match my costs of running an EV.

Keep in mind this is before you factor in oil changes, brakes(less brake wear on an EV) and other maintenance(transmission, transfer case, etc) that come with an internal combustion engine. Even if you take the highest prices in the US(20c/kWh) you'd still have to hit 47mpg to equal an EV. Did I mention that an EV can do this while also making over 450hp?

Heck, right now it costs me more in tires prices w/ new tires @ 40k than all the electricity that I've spent since we bought the car.

I fully admit that I'm biased but I challenge anyone to take a spin in an EV and not be at least a little impressed.

I think he meant the most efficient use of the BTUs in the fuel, VS your view of what's the most efficient use of your dollars. That's where a lot of folks don't see the problems in the way things are done.

Take ethanol, for example. Grow the corn, transport it to the refinery, cook it into ethanol, burn it in your car. Look at all the BTU's lost to transport and refine it VS if you just burned it directly in a corn burner in your house you could recover about 90% of the BTUs in the corn.

If you had to create your own electricity by burning oil rather than buying pre-made electricity, you'd see just how many BTUs are lost in the process. Its a highly inefficient process. While its good for your wallet (no one's knocking you for that), its a lousy use of the resource (which we all take part in, no finger pointing here).

 

[buickanddeere]

The new nuclear subs never require refueling...they are fueled from the onset for the 30+ years of expected service...they are only limited by the amount of food they can carry in their stores...

The reactor core is and fuel load is way over sized vs the boilers, turbines condensers. It's cheaper to build one oversize reactor than it is to cut a sub at mid life into three pieces and weld in another reactor/boiler section.
A new load of fuel is enriched up to approx 90% which is about the limit going critical on prompt neutrons without actually detonating as a warhead. If there ever was a run away it would just get white hot and melt .
While operating with so much positive reactivity and requires operating with a lot of adjuster rods absorbing neutrons to maintain control in the first several years of operation . All that positive reactivity does allow a rapid reactor restart incase the reactor was tripped/SCRAMed either by accident, safety system over reaction or an attempt to reduce the subs noise signature. Although the decay heat from a tripped reactor is considerable for the first several days and heat must still be carried away via the heat transport system to either the boilers or shutdown cooler heat exchangers.
A high amount of positive reactivity is required to over come Xenon-135 poisoning that will prevent a reactor from going critical , somewhere around 20-40 minutes after a reactor trip.

 

[buickanddeere]

Aw shucks B&D; it seems your knowledge base is out of date.

The nuclear subs do have endurance and they do need it if they are trying to find a hydrogen fuel cell sub.

A diesel electric sub whether it be diesel/lead acid or diesel/fuel cell when stationary can be a nearly silent hole in the water compared to any nuclear sub. The diesel sub does have to either use a snorkel or use a lot of power to split water to obtain oxygen and operate CO2 scrubbers for the crew.
to find a sub with less chance of giving yourself away is by dropping a series of sono bouy into the water instead of using you own sonor transmitter. The same pings however that bounce off the enemy's hull will also bounce off your own hull. You can bet that the diesel sub is listening to everything around it. Maybe even making a of it's own natural ocean and sea sounds as camouflage.
Sooner or later however that diesel sub is going to have to crank up the ICE and make some noise near the surface.

 

[Egon]

A diesel electric sub whether it be diesel/lead acid or diesel/fuel cell when stationary can be a nearly silent hole in the water compared to any nuclear sub. The diesel sub does have to either use a snorkel or use a lot of power to split water to obtain oxygen and operate CO2 scrubbers for the crew.
to find a sub with less chance of giving yourself away is by dropping a series of sono bouy into the water instead of using you own sonor transmitter. The same pings however that bounce off the enemy's hull will also bounce off your own hull. You can bet that the diesel sub is listening to everything around it. Maybe even making a of it's own natural ocean and sea sounds as camouflage.
Sooner or later however that diesel sub is going to have to crank up the ICE and make some noise near the surface.

Sorta of diversion from your original statement with some erroneous abstracts thrown in.

 

[Garandman]

Replacing batteries does not fix the range problem. YOu would still need to make frequent stops (as in 'every 100 miles' at least) -that kills over the road trucking..

Not a truck but new Chevrolet Bolt has over 200 mile range.

Say Hello to the Electric Model T, the Chevy Bolt | Test Drives content from WardsAuto

Some Tesla's are over 300.

EV's are great for city delivery driving: we have an electric bicycle and it's great for getting around. I just don't see them catching on in the snowbelt because of the dual problems of decreased range in cold weather, and the need to power a heater. Skipping to Hydrogen fuel cells seems more likely.

 

[buickanddeere]

Sorta of diversion from your original statement with some erroneous abstracts thrown in.

Saying that the diesel fuel cell instead of diesel lead acid sounds great and some contractors, engineers and legal firms made a fortune from it. Simple and reliable is superior to complex .

 

[buickanddeere]

Not a truck but new Chevrolet Bolt has over 200 mile range.

Say Hello to the Electric Model T, the Chevy Bolt | Test Drives content from WardsAuto

Some Tesla's are over 300.

EV's are great for city delivery driving: we have an electric bicycle and it's great for getting around. I just don't see them catching on in the snowbelt because of the dual problems of decreased range in cold weather, and the need to power a heater. Skipping to Hydrogen fuel cells seems more likely.

The clean low cost source of hydrogen is ????

 

[Egon]

Saying that the diesel fuel cell instead of diesel lead acid sounds great and some contractors, engineers and legal firms made a fortune from it. Simple and reliable is superior to complex .

You mean they don't work? Or what?

 

[buickanddeere]

The fuel cell may very well work at a cost of investment , complexity plus R&D. Lead acid battery is rather simple and works at atmospheric pressure without noisy gas compressors.

 

[Redneck in training]

The clean low cost source of hydrogen is ????

Problem of hydrogen is not making it but energy density. So far there is not viable hydrogen storage that would store amount of energy as in example tank of gas or diesel. Transportation is another problem but hydrogen can be produced locally.

Speaking about efficiency of electric cars. ICE delivers about 20% of energy in the fuel to the wheels but if you take into account energy spent by getting the hydrocarbon, refining it and delivering it it is much less. Tesla says electric car delivers about 60% of the grid power to the wheels, but it doesn't take into account efficiency of the power plant and other losses. I would estimate that the total efficiency of conversion from the hydrocarbon to the wheels of the electric car is at least double of the ICE. In addition there are no oil changes, and electric cars have much better aerodynamic than ICE of grid powered cars.
What I am saying it is significantly more energy efficient to burn hydrocarbon in the power plant and charge electric car than burning it in ICE.

 

[Egon]

The fuel cell may very well work at a cost of investment , complexity plus R&D. Lead acid battery is rather simple and works at atmospheric pressure without noisy gas compressors.

You mean all operating fuel cells need a noisy gas compressor??

 

[houstonscott]

The fuel cell may very well work at a cost of investment , complexity plus R&D. Lead acid battery is rather simple and works at atmospheric pressure without noisy gas compressors.

Fuel cells were all the rage of the greens, then they found out the best fuel for a fuel cell was diesel. Then fuel cells went by the wayside. You see it's not about power it's about getting off fossil fuels for the hoax. HS

 

[the old grind]

It's always someone's 'investment' (consumer or gov't) that makes these things work, so it falls on early adopters and enthusiastic pols to fund R&D.

No matter how long it'll take to fully develop alts to ICEs, progress will be made at the speed of profit while we masses wait for the 'revival' (and volts or alt fuels) to come to 'our town'.

I'm old enough that it'll surely be a diesel that is someday 'pried from my cold, dead hands.'

Sincerely yours,
'Laughing Luddite'.

 

[buickanddeere]

You mean all operating fuel cells need a noisy gas compressor??

How are you going to compress gas into a storage tank without a compressor. Compressors require power to operate. Heat has to be dissipated from the compressor and the compressed gas. Submarines making noise is not recommended.

 

[buickanddeere]

You mean they don't work? Or what?

Saying a lot of $$$ was spent on them to appease some greenies.

 

[buickanddeere]

Problem of hydrogen is not making it but energy density. So far there is not viable hydrogen storage that would store amount of energy as in example tank of gas or diesel. Transportation is another problem but hydrogen can be produced locally.

Speaking about efficiency of electric cars. ICE delivers about 20% of energy in the fuel to the wheels but if you take into account energy spent by getting the hydrocarbon, refining it and delivering it it is much less. Tesla says electric car delivers about 60% of the grid power to the wheels, but it doesn't take into account efficiency of the power plant and other losses. I would estimate that the total efficiency of conversion from the hydrocarbon to the wheels of the electric car is at least double of the ICE. In addition there are no oil changes, and electric cars have much better aerodynamic than ICE of grid powered cars.
What I am saying it is significantly more energy efficient to burn hydrocarbon in the power plant and charge electric car than burning it in ICE.

Do you think there will be a "new" way to store hydrogen ?
Thermal power plants creating hydrogen or supplying power to charge batteries is not an advantage.
Where are you going to find the energy storage density to power plains, trains and automobiles for more than 1-2 hours at a time then spend 5+ hours for a full charge without over heating the battery pack?

 

[Egon]

How are you going to compress gas into a storage tank without a compressor. Compressors require power to operate. Heat has to be dissipated from the compressor and the compressed gas. Submarines making noise is not recommended.

Where is the compressor on a submarine?? They may just have a storage tank that's filled in port!

Seems on excersise's them fuel cell subs are hard to find despite that noisy compressor. And then there's rumours the nuclear powered types need pumps for heat dissipation.

Now I surely know little about fuel cells or submarines but your comments indicate your in the same position!