Will this be tomorrow's transportation?

[jerrybob]

Speaking of electric transportation.......check out the new JD tractor.

John Deere’s first fully electric tractor sounds like a jet engine

 

[MultiMow]

Oh, just heard on the news that the American avg life expectancy went down, the population reduction is starting...
If you add in the Baby Boomer end of life reduction, we wont need to do a thing here soon.

Those baby boomers had kids... kids who are breeding and consuming more energy with unprecedented levels of disregard and irresponsibility.

 

[houstonscott]

Report: Costly wind turbines projected to yield $1.39 in daily savings Report: Costly wind turbines projected to yield $1.39 in daily savings | Fox News

HS

 

[vvanders]

"one thing important thing that hasn't been considered is reducing our dependency on foreign energy sources" this would be a blatantly uniformed statement. How much do you think we depend on "foreign" sources and what's your definition of "foreign?" If its Canada, then your close to correct. Our electricity production in 2015 broke out like: Coal: 33% Natural gas = 33% Nuclear = 20% Hydropower = 6% Other renewables = 7% Biomass = 1.6% Geothermal = 0.4% Solar = 0.6% Wind = 4.7% Petroleum = 1% Other gases = <1%. Coal natural gas, nuclear and hydro aren't foreign, unless again Canada is foreign. That makes over 75% of our electrical production domestic. For transportation, oil specifically, less than 20% comes form Persian gulf countries, Africa and tiny countries we've never heard of. The rest comes from the US (~40%) South America (~20%) and again Canada (~15%). ll give you that the south American countries are foreign so why do we buy it from them instead of getting it here? Cause its cheaper that way. Its the make or buy decision. If its cheaper to buy it than do it yourself, you buy it. It has strategic advantage to leaving our natural resource in the ground and buying the foreign stuff at rock bottom prices. wouldn't u rather have a potential future enemy without an oil reserve? Could we cut off foreign inbound oil today? Yep. Would that benefit us economically or strategically? Nope. The foreign energy fear is a scare tactic used by the media, in the words of Chuck D: don't believe the hype.

Note that I said dependency, we currently import 2x the amount of oil that we produce( How much petroleum does the United States import and export? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) ). Just because Canada is our buddy doesn't mean that we are isolated from price spikes and external factors. The advantage of electricity is you can take advantage of low prices if they're available but also give you the options of other forms if they're cheaper.

Right now a full "tank" for me is $6 at current electricity prices for 270mi of range, I don't think any internal combustion engine can come close to that. As battery prices drop(which they will because they're a technology not a resource) you'll see the economic bias switch towards EVs.

 

[vvanders]

The problem with electrics isn't the electrics but where the power to run them comes from. Today that is mostly fossil fueled plants that aren't any more efficient than the internal combustion engines that the electric motors are supposed to replace. Then you have to add in all the losses from transmission and energy conversion. Every time you change energy from one form to another you loose something to conversion loss. In the end electric cars are actually environmental disasters and it's dictated by physics which can't be overcome. Before electrics can make any sense at all you have to begin with something that makes sense. You have to begin at the beginning, not at the end of the chain. Once you have a real source of cheap, clean energy many more things are made possible but not until then.

That's actually not the case, power plants can get better efficiency because they have a couple things that work in their favor vs internal combustion engines.

The biggest issue is waste heat, in a car you have to dump it via your radiator. However in a power plant they can have a massive heat exchanger that can capture it and use it to generate more power. Conservation of energy means that your car cannot be as efficient as a power plant that captures heat(fun fact 1 gallon of gas has ~33.4kWh so most EVs run on 1-3 gallons of gas to 100-300 miles).

Secondly cars need to work across a wide range of power bands, however a generator can sit at a single RPM and optimize for that specific band. So you'll lose some power due having a requirement to function at different speeds.

Those two things combined mean that quite a few plants exceed 50% efficiency where cars top out around 35%.

Also we have a ton of hydro up here in the PNW so we already have a nice source of cheap clean energy .

 

[turnkey4099]

That's actually not the case, power plants can get better efficiency because they have a couple things that work in their favor vs internal combustion engines.

The biggest issue is waste heat, in a car you have to dump it via your radiator. However in a power plant they can have a massive heat exchanger that can capture it and use it to generate more power. Conservation of energy means that your car cannot be as efficient as a power plant that captures heat(fun fact 1 gallon of gas has ~33.4kWh so most EVs run on 1-3 gallons of gas to 100-300 miles).

Secondly cars need to work across a wide range of power bands, however a generator can sit at a single RPM and optimize for that specific band. So you'll lose some power due having a requirement to function at different speeds.

Those two things combined mean that quite a few plants exceed 50% efficiency where cars top out around 35%.

Also we have a ton of hydro up here in the PNW so we already have a nice source of cheap clean energy .

So far. The push is on by the econuts to remove all the Columbia River dams.

 

[houstonscott]

That's actually not the case, power plants can get better efficiency because they have a couple things that work in their favor vs internal combustion engines. The biggest issue is waste heat, in a car you have to dump it via your radiator. However in a power plant they can have a massive heat exchanger that can capture it and use it to generate more power. Conservation of energy means that your car cannot be as efficient as a power plant that captures heat(fun fact 1 gallon of gas has ~33.4kWh so most EVs run on 1-3 gallons of gas to 100-300 miles). Secondly cars need to work across a wide range of power bands, however a generator can sit at a single RPM and optimize for that specific band. So you'll lose some power due having a requirement to function at different speeds. Those two things combined mean that quite a few plants exceed 50% efficiency where cars top out around 35%. Also we have a ton of hydro up here in the PNW so we already have a nice source of cheap clean energy .

Sounds great, now start explaining all the inefficiency with turning that into electricity, transporting that electricity, stepping it up and down, putting it into a battery, taking it out, and converting it back to motion. You'll find the most efficient thing you can do is burn that fuel directly in an internal combustion engine in a car, high pressure diesels, out performing gas by far. Case closed. HS.

 

[Egon]

Sounds great, now start explaining all the inefficiency with turning that into electricity, transporting that electricity, stepping it up and down, putting it into a battery, taking it out, and converting it back to motion. You'll find the most efficient thing you can do is burn that fuel directly in an internal combustion engine in a car, high pressure diesels, out performing gas by far. Case closed. HS.

Dosen't the combustion engine fuel require a few refining/transportation procedures to make it usable?? Case closed!

 

[houstonscott]

Dosen't the combustion engine fuel require a few refining/transportation procedures to make it usable?? Case closed!

That happens before you generate the electricity with it... Think about it... Case closed. All electric does is move the exhaust or emissions and much more of it, to a different location, at gigantic cost, and increased emissions. Case closed. HS

 

[adventure bob]

VV, I think your misreading the report and comparing apples to balloons. The import export report you cited, is a sales report; pure and simple. There's no relationship there that would indicate were dependent on foreign energy. However what we actually consume to generate energy would show dependence, and even if you don't like Canada in the numbers, energy generation, not just gas production, over 50% of power generation in the US is from truly domestic sources. Again the reason we buy oil from others is strategic and in no way should be considered dependency. Dependency would imply no other option. If I'm insulin dependent I cant just stop; I'm dependent. If consider the fact the geological fact that after Russia we have the largest reserves of oil in the world, you may reconsider the word dependent. Again strategic economic decision to use other peoples natural resources before our own.

 

[buickanddeere]

Guess those submarines are a figment of our imagination?

The periodic table has had some new additions.

What submarines ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Shoot, why didn't anyone tell me, I want my free liberal arts degree now!

I think one thing important thing that hasn't been considered is reducing our dependency on foreign energy sources. The electric car is perfectly suited for this since you can drive generation from solar, natural gas(which is much cleaner than coal and currently transforming the energy generation industry), etc. Heck, I know more than a few people who run their electric cars 100% from the solar panels on their roof.

In my mind Tesla could be the modern American muscle car. You have a car designed in America, built in the US and growing the number of manufacturing jobs domestically. It's a company that has entered in incredibly difficult market and yet now builds one of the fastest production cars in the world. How can you not love a car that can put down over 1,000hp and is also a great family car(seriously they're incredibly roomy). Yes they had help from the government, but what industry hasn't? All of the things they used were available to other companies and today the ZEV credits/etc make a pretty small portion of Tesla's overall profits.

Sure, battery prices are high now but what many people don't consider is that batteries are a technology, not a resource. When economies of scale kick in they get orders of magnitude cheaper rather than more expensive due to scarcity. Just look at the price of HDTVs over the last 5 years. All of the physical components are readily available, it's the precise manufacturing process that's expensive. Just like the chip in your modern computer starts out as sand just(silicon) same with Li-Ion batteries.

To me they're a marvel of American thinking and engineering. I think that's something we could use more of these days, I'd much rather take that then companies that are moving production out of the US.

Economy of scale has kicked in with Lithium batteries a long time ago. The last major drop was when production was transferred to China. Lower wages, no pension, no healthcare plan and no environmental regulations so the toxic manufacturing process poisons the environment.
Lithium batteries are not getting cheaper. They have bottomed out like microwaves, calulators and big screen TV's.

 

[Egon]

What submarines ?

The ones that have hydrogen fuel cells!

 

[buickanddeere]

Another great point is how Tesla (aka Elon Musk) has driven down the price of batteries. Tesla motors has all but forced the other OEMs to start producing electric vehicles... QUADRUPLING the economic investment in high capacity batteries, and driving down the price per kWh hr by nearly 80% of what it was ten years ago. This has also driven technology to develop smaller/lighter packs as well.

In the next 20yrs, we are likely to see electric energy storage density increase by a whopping 1,000%. Just to give you an idea... that would be the equivalent of advancement we accomplished from the period of the Baghdad battery (around the time the Great Pyramids of Giza were built) to the mid-90s (NiCad rechargeable batteries). That's THOUSANDS of years in advancement in only two decades. UOTE]

There is no 1000% increase in battery storage density, there are no elements on the periodic table that can react together an store or produce that electrical storage energy density.
Tell us please what chemistry and physics courses that you graduated from in highschool, college or university?

 

[Egon]

That happens before you generate the electricity with it... Think about it... Case closed. All electric does is move the exhaust or emissions and much more of it, to a different location, at gigantic cost, and increased emissions. Case closed. HS

You mean the power stations use the same fuel as a Diesel engine? Case not closed!

 

[buickanddeere]

Speaking of electric transportation.......check out the new JD tractor.

John Deere痴 first fully electric tractor sounds like a jet engine

Tell use how long that 130Kw hr battery pack will last before charging ? Don't waste your time telling us that new batteries "are just around the corner".

 

[buickanddeere]

The ones that have hydrogen fuel cells!

Still don't have the range of nuclear. Hydrogen is explosive.
As for endurance the 2-1/2 weeks is with limited movement, using snorkel air, with minimal electrical loads beyond operating a gps, radio and a microwave to heat up canned food. Big deal, that is done now with lead acid diesel electric subs.
Trying to make subs green to suit the greenies and peace lovers is not practical for the poor smucks inside the sub.
The hydrogen sub is just another version of the current diesel electric. Empty out that diesel tank an she ain't going nowhere.

 

[/pine]

Still don't have the range of nuclear...

The new nuclear subs never require refueling...they are fueled from the onset for the 30+ years of expected service...they are only limited by the amount of food they can carry in their stores...

 

[MultiMow]

Another great point is how Tesla (aka Elon Musk) has driven down the price of batteries. Tesla motors has all but forced the other OEMs to start producing electric vehicles... QUADRUPLING the economic investment in high capacity batteries, and driving down the price per kWh hr by nearly 80% of what it was ten years ago. This has also driven technology to develop smaller/lighter packs as well.

In the next 20yrs, we are likely to see electric energy storage density increase by a whopping 1,000%. Just to give you an idea... that would be the equivalent of advancement we accomplished from the period of the Baghdad battery (around the time the Great Pyramids of Giza were built) to the mid-90s (NiCad rechargeable batteries). That's THOUSANDS of years in advancement in only two decades. UOTE]

There is no 1000% increase in battery storage density, there are no elements on the periodic table that can react together an store or produce that electrical storage energy density.
Tell us please what chemistry and physics courses that you graduated from in highschool, college or university?

Lmao

Apologies for too many zeros.

Regardless... investing in more efficient ways to use electricity as a fundamental source of power for locomotion, will yield far greater benefit than what little bit of progress is left in combustion engine deveopment.

 

[Egon]

Still don't have the range of nuclear. Hydrogen is explosive.
As for endurance the 2-1/2 weeks is with limited movement, using snorkel air, with minimal electrical loads beyond operating a gps, radio and a microwave to heat up canned food. Big deal, that is done now with lead acid diesel electric subs.
Trying to make subs green to suit the greenies and peace lovers is not practical for the poor smucks inside the sub.
The hydrogen sub is just another version of the current diesel electric. Empty out that diesel tank an she ain't going nowhere.

Aw shucks B&D; it seems your knowledge base is out of date.

The nuclear subs do have endurance and they do need it if they are trying to find a hydrogen fuel cell sub.