Energy storage, cheap and low tech.

[SPYDERLK]

Where is it possible to obtain enough water, a large enough reservoir and enough reservoir height ?
Please calculate how many pounds that would have to travel a vertical height to store 1 MW/hr .

Few have considered this deeply enuf to grasp the magnitude. Some are even storing Watts, lulled by the lazy vernacular.

 

[orezok]

Where is it possible to obtain enough water, a large enough reservoir and enough reservoir height ?
Please calculate how many pounds that would have to travel a vertical height to store 1 MW/hr .

Here.

JOSHUA TREE: Plan aims to turn desert water to electricity - Press Enterprise

 

[SPYDERLK]

Here.

JOSHUA TREE: Plan aims to turn desert water to electricity - Press Enterprise

Have you read it? Did you see the credible problem issues? ... ALL without pertinent further consideration of the magnitude or the inherent efficiencies of pumping on the upside and recovery of energy on the downside. ... The devil is in the details.

 

[orezok]

Have you read it? Did you see the credible problem issues? ... ALL without pertinent further consideration of the magnitude or the inherent efficiencies of pumping on the upside and recovery of energy on the downside. ... The devil is in the details.

That article is about a year old. Most of the issues were by nay sayers and NIMBy's. They have cleared most of the hurdles and the project is proceeding.

 

[Redneck in training]

The idea behind energy storage is to buy cheap electric power (that would otherwise got wasted in example in street lights or generated by opportunity source such as wind or PV or similar) and turn it into expensive (peak) power. So efficiency is mute point as long as it is reasonable. If the project pays for itself the size doesn't matter.
Would you like to have an iron mine or pumped storage near by? I think pumped storage would win. You could go fishing there.

 

[SPYDERLK]

The idea behind energy storage is to buy cheap electric power (that would otherwise got wasted in example in street lights or generated by opportunity source such as wind or PV or similar) and turn it into expensive (peak) power. So efficiency is mute point as long as it is reasonable. If the project pays for itself the size doesn't matter.
Would you like to have an iron mine or pumped storage near by? I think pumped storage would win. You could go fishing there.

This is the decision point. ... It pretty much has to pay for itself. The conversion efficiency required to satisfy this is not evident, nor notable in the proposals Iv seen.

 

[Redneck in training]

This is the decision point. ... It pretty much has to pay for itself. The conversion efficiency required to satisfy this is not evident, nor notable in the proposals Iv seen.

I just Googled it. There are 10 pumped energy storage power plants with greater than 1 GW of capacity in the USA and number of smaller one.
Total capacity of those top 10 is 14.764 GW. I can't find the amount of energy stored but could speculate that each could produce the peak power for several hours.

 

[buickanddeere]

That article is about a year old. Most of the issues were by nay sayers and NIMBy's. They have cleared most of the hurdles and the project is proceeding.

1,300,000,000 watts supplying 100000 homes is 1300 watts per home. Not even enough to operate a portable room heater.
The project cost vs sold power income does not add up to make this pumped storage economically justifiable.
1,300 MW is not a whole lot of power on a single state's 20-30 thousand MW utility grid
The greenies are more about feelings and the "end justifies the means" rather than facts and fair play or honesty.

 

[CalG]

we have a population of 630,000 here in Vermont, A fraction of that in homes. 13 GW would be welcome.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I just Googled it. There are 10 pumped energy storage power plants with greater than 1 GW of capacity in the USA and number of smaller one.
Total capacity of those top 10 is 14.764 GW. I can't find the amount of energy stored but could speculate that each could produce the peak power for several hours.

14.764GW for how long? ... yes we need the energy figure to make a meaningful assessment.

 

[MossRoad]

Let me enlighten you as to how a hybrid vehicle works. The electrical motor/generator provides virtually all of the torque up to a speed of about 45 MPH. With typical driving that would be at less than the 2,000 RPM where the peak electrical energy is produced. Above 45 MPH the gas engine increasingly takes over and the electrical side starts to drop off as the graph indicates. Yes, the gas engine will reach 5,000 RPM eventually as you accelerate to a speed above 45, but it is not necessary for the engine to run at that speed to produce it's maximum electrical output.

I know how they work... I want to know how you can get 50kw out of the thing with the kit you mentioned??? I'd like to look at the kit. The biggest kit anyone can find is 5kw, not 50kw as you alluded to.

 

[Redneck in training]

14.764GW for how long? ... yes we need the energy figure to make a meaningful assessment.

The purpose of the storage is to even out demand/load or absorb energy excess available from sources that are not easily regulated or are too slow to respond.
Batteries can respond pretty much instantly, pumped storage in seconds and electro-mechanical (like trains) in minutes. To stabilize the grid will require all. Pumped storage can make money by buying cheap energy during excess and selling it with profit during peak. Strategically placed storage together with local energy sources can limit energy transportation losses.

 

[orezok]

1,300,000,000 watts supplying 100000 homes is 1300 watts per home. Not even enough to operate a portable room heater.
The project cost vs sold power income does not add up to make this pumped storage economically justifiable.
1,300 MW is not a whole lot of power on a single state's 20-30 thousand MW utility grid
The greenies are more about feelings and the "end justifies the means" rather than facts and fair play or honesty.

You need to check your math. 1,300MW = 1,300,000kW / 100,000 = 13kW per house. I can easily run my house on 13 kW. Sorry.

 

[buickanddeere]

The purpose of the storage is to even out demand/load or absorb energy excess available from sources that are not easily regulated or are too slow to respond.
Batteries can respond pretty much instantly, pumped storage in seconds and electro-mechanical (like trains) in minutes. To stabilize the grid will require all. Pumped storage can make money by buying cheap energy during excess and selling it with profit during peak. Strategically placed storage together with local energy sources can limit energy transportation losses.

It's a lot cheaper, simpler and more reliable to just run a couple of hydro electric units on spinning reserve .

 

[buickanddeere]

Read the article in the link. 1,300 MW and one million homes .

 

[Redneck in training]

It's a lot cheaper, simpler and more reliable to just run a couple of hydro electric units on spinning reserve .

There are dams that are located on small streams. There is not enough inflow to replenish water used for energy production during a peak. Those are good candidates for pumped storage.
Another problems is what to do when there is overproduction. I did several jobs for power plants and understood that there is a energy contribution window outside of which the plant gets penalized either for under or over production. I have seen disconnecting 100 MW machine to stay in the window. Energy storage facilities help (or are necessary) to stabilize the grid. What will happen when all street lights are converted in example to LED? Night load provided by street lights will drop to about 10%. So there will be excess of capacity somewhere. The grid needs updating with long distance transmission lines (in example DC) together with strategically located grid size energy storage.

 

[orezok]

Read the article in the link. 1,300 MW and one million homes .

My bad. I read a number of articles and they all mentioned 100,000 homes. I picked this article because it best summarized the project, but unfortuntely the reporter couldn't count and I focused on the 100,000 mentioned in the other articles. The number IS 100,000 as stated in the draft EIR.

Any reasonable person would realize the 1,000,000 is in error.

 

[buickanddeere]

There are dams that are located on small streams. There is not enough inflow to replenish water used for energy production during a peak. Those are good candidates for pumped storage.
Another problems is what to do when there is overproduction. I did several jobs for power plants and understood that there is a energy contribution window outside of which the plant gets penalized either for under or over production. I have seen disconnecting 100 MW machine to stay in the window. Energy storage facilities help (or are necessary) to stabilize the grid. What will happen when all street lights are converted in example to LED? Night load provided by street lights will drop to about 10%. So there will be excess of capacity somewhere. The grid needs updating with long distance transmission lines (in example DC) together with strategically located grid size energy storage.

All you need to do is find some compact , safe, low cost , efficient energy dense storage media . What would cost and logistics be of a bank of Lithium batteries the size of the state of Maryland ?