Redneck in training
Elite Member
The train goes up, the train goes down: a simple new way to store energy - Vox Just run into it. It seems to me that it is doable even on small farm size scale.
Energy storage, cheap and low tech.
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CobyRupert
Super Member
Interesting.
Flywheels, filling abandoned mines/caves with compressed air, pumping water into storage pools. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes as the grid gets less stable, and more storage options are needed when wind and solar becomes a bigger contributor.
Where the (far off) future gets really interesting is when we are all on demand metering, consumer electrical energy is sold on a spot market, and everybody has an electric car (i.e. a giant portable "battery") that is not only a consumer of energy from the grid, but you could also be a SUPPLIER to the grid. Where many individual consumers collectively represent a huge energy storage capacity.
So say you can charge at night (or really sunny/windy day) when the market is 10 cents a kw-hr, and maybe sell part of that electricity back to the grid on a high demand day (or cloudy, doldrum day). Everybody becomes an energy trader. Ken Lay, watch out!!
Flywheels, filling abandoned mines/caves with compressed air, pumping water into storage pools. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes as the grid gets less stable, and more storage options are needed when wind and solar becomes a bigger contributor.
Where the (far off) future gets really interesting is when we are all on demand metering, consumer electrical energy is sold on a spot market, and everybody has an electric car (i.e. a giant portable "battery") that is not only a consumer of energy from the grid, but you could also be a SUPPLIER to the grid. Where many individual consumers collectively represent a huge energy storage capacity.
So say you can charge at night (or really sunny/windy day) when the market is 10 cents a kw-hr, and maybe sell part of that electricity back to the grid on a high demand day (or cloudy, doldrum day). Everybody becomes an energy trader. Ken Lay, watch out!!
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
While working in Australia I watched a show in TV about smart grid. Guy had large PV array and battery storage installed. The control system was communicating with smart grid server and supplied power to the grid when there was high demand for energy and therefore it was very expensive. His system supplied energy just for few seconds to cover the demand spike but he made several cents. Recalculated to kWh he was selling energy for about 4 AUD/kWh at the moment.
dickfoster
Elite Member
I wonder if he'll ever recover his cost for all that rigamarole. Likely not. Smart? Maybe not so smart after all. Just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it makes any sense or cents.
KennyG
Super Member
I've seen this before. My biggest question would be on operating and maintenance cost. Rail and rolling stock requires maintenance. The claimed 86% efficiency would require pretty good bearings since the cycle has a two motor/generator to motion conversions. Costs estimates should be pretty reliable though since it's all known technology.
CalG
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The local electric company just pumps water up to an elevated (natural) reservoir.
it's been in operation for quite a number of years, before my time anyway. The cost to maintain the "rolling stock" is minimal. ;-)
it's been in operation for quite a number of years, before my time anyway. The cost to maintain the "rolling stock" is minimal. ;-)
brasco426
Gold Member
I was in a house servicing a boiler and noticed the gentleman had a solar system installed. At the end of the service call he was nice enough to show me it. I was quite impressed at the complexity of it and at the point in time on that particular day was making about 3500 watts. So we began talking more and more and although he can sell back to the grid it seemed as though his particular system came with some strings attached. So here's the catch if the power goes out he can't just make and use the power he's creating. I couldn't believe that a system as nice as it was was useless to him if the power went out. At that point I wasn't convinced I would ever have something like that. I'm sure it has its uses and cuts down his dependence on the grid but man if the power is out you are SOL.
dickfoster
Elite Member
They do the same thing out here. There are mountain reservoirs all over the Sierra Nevada for that purpose. Wonder what they'll do when they get all of those so called clean electric cars sucking on the gird when they can't supply enough electricity to power the grid in hot weather now? Declare stay at home and can't drive days? Maybe they'll start opening up the HOV lanes for gas guzzlers only. LOL
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
The inverters work in current mode when connected to the grid. In other words they try to push all available energy to the users conected directly to the PV or to the grid. When grid goes down the inverters disconnect in order to prevent back feed to the grid. There are some inverters that can switch to voltage/frequency operation and supply energy as long as the sun is shining. But the power is available only from an outlet on the inverter. So if grid goes down you are not worse off than if you have no PV.
buickanddeere
Super Member
In order to supply electricity for Canada and the US with pumped storage. It would require pumping the contents of all five Great lakes uphill into some reservoir. Where is the reservoir ?
Any body see a challenge in logistics? The amount of solar panels, the size of a dam, how many trains up how many mountains. The efficiency would be about 80-85% pushing the train uphill and approx 80-85% generating power on the downhill trip. That is loosing 30% of the power generated.
How much solar and wind power will be required considering those losses and to make up for days without solar or wind generation?
Are the environmentalists going to approve building dams and flooding land ?
Any body see a challenge in logistics? The amount of solar panels, the size of a dam, how many trains up how many mountains. The efficiency would be about 80-85% pushing the train uphill and approx 80-85% generating power on the downhill trip. That is loosing 30% of the power generated.
How much solar and wind power will be required considering those losses and to make up for days without solar or wind generation?
Are the environmentalists going to approve building dams and flooding land ?
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
I know people who bought 60 000 dollars truck as daily driver to work. Show me a 60k daily driver making 300 a month. In fact it costs probably more than 500/month in fuel, insurance and financing cost. So we drive our used cars and have 36k PV system that saves us 277 USD/month in electric bill cost. It will take 16 years to break even if you want to know. It seems long time but after 16 years it will still produce energy while the truck owner will have pretty much worthless piece of junk he sank huge amount of money in for questionable "fun" to drive thing. How smart is that? Well , I should stop being sarcastic. We are guilty of such thing too. Our house way too big and has way too many bathrooms for two people, not speaking about my wife's closet. :banghead: Fortunately in our good old USA we can buy (smart or not smart) what we want but not necessarily what we need. I rest my case.
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
Pumped storage works well on large scale but lifting mass can be scaled from mini to mega. I think.
CalG
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These comments are fatalistic. This thread has to do with balancing the generation and consumption of energy, NOT supplying it in the first place.
No great lakes reservoirs are needed with the present situation.
Still, there are locations that suffer "brown outs" that just "might" be alleviated with reserve generation capacity. Such as using the off peak surplus capacity to be reclaimed in time of need.
orezok
Super Member
There is a plan in the works to take the old Kaiser Steel iron ore open pit mine out in the desert and turn it into a pumped storage power generation plant. Pump the water up at night when rates are low and make power during the day when rates are high. It's plan is to make 3,500 mega watts. It appears that it is going to be a reality
reb
Veteran Member
If it hasn't failed in the meantime. I wonder about the long term reliability of the PV panels and the support electronics.
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
The power grid had stability issues from day one. That is why we have street lights whose original purpose was to provide night load for the generators. So any energy storage can be used to even out generation/demand discrepancies. In fact if electric cars become ubiquitous they could serve such purpose while plugged in.
There were dreamers 100 years ago saying that one day we will have electric power more or less to every object in the USA. They were told it can't be done. But we have electric power more or less to every object in the USA. We also have several hundred million cars in operation. And those have to be replaced just about every 16 years. So if that can be done somebody will make energy storage on such scale. The technologies exist. It is just matter of cost.
I am currently working on a power station under construction. It is about 18 month late, not even close to be finished and about 100% over budget. It is clear to me that after it is all done the owner of the plant will ask for rate increase. Couple more of those and wind, PV or what ever new will show up will be cheaper than power from coal or gas.
In fact the utility that supply power to the grid my house is connected to (The utility is hostile to residential solar) just signed a contract to build 200 MW PV generation plant in phase one and wants to build two more of similar size sometime later.
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
The panels have 20 years and the inverters 25 years warranty. The experience with system in operation for long time would suggest that it will most likely last that long.
CalG
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warrantee is just another cost.
PV installations have no better track records than does wind. And look where that has gone.
Cost of upkeep exceeds returns.
Your tax dollars at work!
PV installations have no better track records than does wind. And look where that has gone.
Cost of upkeep exceeds returns.
Your tax dollars at work!
MossRoad
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Yep. However, this is slow moving, so its got that going for it.
