Rebar/ labor costs?

/ Rebar/ labor costs? #1  

USAFpj

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The initial contract- a 4in, fiber reinforced at 3,000psi slab was going to be poured in a 30x50 shop.

After being concerned about settling and fill compaction issues, I've wanted to now add 10mil vapor barrier, #4 bar and placed 16oc. The last request was that no water was to be added at the site.

The project manager then stated that my requested items would cost an additional $3,600. I must be out of touch with reality, because the manager is a good dude who shoots it to me straight. Between the rebar and 10mil barrier, that's maybe $700 in material... at the most? He says he needs a pump truck because of the added bar?

In his defense, he does not have access to all sides of the shop- but the front door is 12ft tall for his truck. Can you guys educate me why I'm out of line, or is it the rebar labor that is killing this budget? :confused2:
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #2  
Rebar needs to be installed, supported up on stakes so it is middle of the concrete. This will prevent truck from backing in and/or use of wheel barrow to move concrete to rear of the building, thus need for a concrete pump rental.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #3  
There should be no major cost for the vapor barrier -- $100-200 tops -- and I assume you would always want that -- can't think of a reason to go without or why it would be related to compaction. Cost is basically materials and a few minutes time to lay it down. If the truck is indeed going to back inside for part of the pour, the barrier would need to be unrolled as the truck moves forward, so that's a little more hassle but not a big deal.

If there are soil compaction issues, best to address those directly instead of trying to beef up the slab with rebar in my opinion. I think it's expensive to deal with this via re-bar, and that's still no guarantee. Don't know what it would cost to get machinery in to properly grade/compact the site, but that is less man-hour labor intensive and surely can be done for less than $3600 unless a lot of fill was required.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #4  
Have you inquired how tall the concrete trucks you plan to use are? I haven't seen one that could get under a 12 foot tall door. Also, if they aren't allowed to add water on-site, he will order the concrete delivered with the slump he likes to work with.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs?
  • Thread Starter
#5  
I guess the reason for the pump truck is because of the rebar.. they won't be able to use the chute?
Price of rebar is at $5.20 a stick, so unless their math is off, just not sure where the $$ is. I'd just as soon as not worry about reinforcement as this is a non weight bearing slab, but I just have a hard time trusting the fill- 4ft of it, and the pad was damp when being leveled. The grader said the top portion was pumping a little- that was 2 months ago. It should be dry now, but not sure how compacted it is.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #6  
Rebar would help a bit, but it won't stop cracking..... If this is all fill, it might all settle the same, but probably not. Why not bump up the psi rating to 4k or even 5k that way it won't Crack. I had a slab poured a few decades ago than it was all fill an d probably half washed out. Never cracked, 5k concrete. My shop had corner fill, remaining area was solid. It cracked after a couple of years, only 3k concrete....
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #7  
Your cheapest option is thicken the slab or use stronger concrete mix
Rebar adds little to the slab strength but makes the concrete harder to place. 16 inch spacing is too wide to be effective. The rebar price is high because truck can not drive on subgrade and pump is required
For strong slab without cracking you should be concerned about water/cement ratio not if water is added at the site
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #8  
Mine. Is 48' long, with rebar. No cracks after 5 or 6 yrs.

Poured half from one end, half from the other.
Do you have a window to pour thru on the back side?
If no insulation remove a couple pieces of siding to pour on the back side?
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #9  
I just went thru this. Amish builder I had do the pole building recommended going to 5K PSI, like others have said here versus rebar. I am storing a 12K 5th wheel in the building.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #10  
Just replied by PM, but I recommend making a couple bore holes with a post hole digger or soil test auger to see exactly what's happening down below the floor base. It would be good peace of mind either way.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs?
  • Thread Starter
#11  
Thanks for the advice. I'll have to address the compaction issue first. As of now, I plan on watering the soil 3 times a week for the next 1.5mnths, and then will rent a plate compactor and spend a good day compacting the 4in of crusher run. The psi rating, which I had not thought of, will get increased as well.

Short of pulling the soil back up and compacting in lifts, this is the best I can do. You can see the grade and building in this pic-
 

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/ Rebar/ labor costs? #12  
Concrete is a very simple thing. When you start modifying it or doing something outside the norm, you run into problems. The number one reason for concrete to crack is the amount of water added to the mix. When you add water, you increase the volume of the concrete. When water evaporates out of the concrete, it contracts and that causes the cracking. Soil compaction is secondary, but it takes years for the soil to settle enough to cause any issues. Usually it doesn't even crack. I've remodeled countless homes where the concrete does not touch the dirt under it and there are no cracks. Usually what you with soil that isn't compacted is shifting or movement of the entire structure. Rarely will it be a cracked slab unless it's really extreme.

Rebar holds the concrete together. No matter how dry you make your mix, odds are good that there will still be cracks. Most cracks are so small that you never even notice them. Rebar holds the concrete tightly together so the minor cracking remains smooth and unseen.

To work properly, rebar has to be in the middle of the pad. You have to use chairs under the rebar to do this. It is 100% impossible to spread the rebar and lift it at the same time like some contractors claim to do. In every case, you end up with rebar at the bottom of the pour on top of the dirt or plastic.

Wire is completely worthless because there is no way to place it on chairs, so the contractors lie to the clients about pulling it up while they spread it. They are standing on the wire, spreading thousands of pounds of concrete over it, and usually pretend to pull up the wire a couple of times when they first start spreading the concrete for pictures. Then they get to work spreading the load and quit pretending to lift it. It is 100% impossible to get wire mesh in the middle of a large pad. Wire mesh is great for sidewalks, small pads that you don't have to walk on, and things like that.

Fiber mesh is a product that adds to holding the concrete together when it cracks, but it's a poor replacement for rebar. It's a good extra to add to rebar if you want it. If a pro tells me that he will use fiber instead of rebar, I wouldn't hire him. He just failed his first test of being honest to me.

Plastic is used to keep the concrete from drying out too fast when pouring on pourus surfaces. Sand is the worse. When you have the correct mixture of water in the mix, you want it to slowly cure over time. When on certain surfaces, like sand, the water in the concrete is wicked out from the bottom and you end up with a week slab that will not cure properly. It's not needed when pouring on compacted clay, but it doesn't hurt anything if used and it's cheap enough to be good insurance if you are unsure about your soil.

My guess is the biggest reason for the cost increase is the need for the pumper. Around here, they will remove a wall to get the cement truck into position, or bring in a bunch more workers to wheel barrow it to the far side on a ramp made of 2x12's across the top of the rebar.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs?
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Eddie, what are your thoughts on psi?
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #14  
You don't have the rebar in the middle of the pad the load is from the top so you want it in the bottom 1" or 2 depending on thickness. It defiantly ties the concrete together so any cracks remain flush. Over watering the base can also create problems especially if clay is involved because it swells and will later shrink & settle. A stronger mix is a definite plus. As to adding water at the site there are variables eg. how far the site is from the plant and how long it takes to unload the truck to much water added is not favorable as it limits the concrete from addearing to the aggregate and weakens the service and cause flaking. A well prepared base with some rebar & strong concrete you have a good slab.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #15  
You don't have the rebar in the middle of the pad the load is from the top so you want it in the bottom 1" or 2 depending on thickness.

That is true if the best support is at the edges and the load is in the middle. If there is support in the middle (like fully compacted fill) and the edges have less support (like hollow spots) it could bend the other way. Putting the rebar halfway up protects you for bending from both directions.
 
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/ Rebar/ labor costs? #16  
I just went thru this. Amish builder I had do the pole building recommended going to 5K PSI, like others have said here versus rebar. I am storing a 12K 5th wheel in the building.

Yea, but denser concrete doesn't equate to crack resistance. If anything, it's more susceptible to cracking because the concrete is more brittle.

Instead of rebar, have him price out the use of a Macrofiber instead of the Microfiber. The macro is a structural product and can replace steel fiber or rebar. It looks like short lengths of rope. I'd suggest using 5lb per cubic yard and highly recommend Forta Ferro because it finishes so well.

You are right to not allow them to add any water. Any additional water only serves to reduce the concrete strength. Instead require them to use a water reducer if the mix is too stiff to work.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #17  
Thanks for the advice. I'll have to address the compaction issue first. As of now, I plan on watering the soil 3 times a week for the next 1.5mnths, and then will rent a plate compactor and spend a good day compacting the 4in of crusher run. The psi rating, which I had not thought of, will get increased as well.

Short of pulling the soil back up and compacting in lifts, this is the best I can do. You can see the grade and building in this pic-

A plate compactor is not capable of penetrating 4" of gravel to compact the underlying soil. Watering, while it might cause soil to erode and fill voids actually is harmful because it moves the soil particles apart. This results in less bearing capacity and settlement when the soil dries out. You need enough moisture for the soil to form a ball when you squeeze it in your fist. Any more and you have to dry the soil out before compacting. The best (only) way to compact soil is in lifts. 3-4" for a plate compactor and 12" for large ride on equipment.

Hey, if you don't get the base right, you can always fix it when the slab cracks!
 
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/ Rebar/ labor costs? #18  
Concrete is a very simple thing. When you start modifying it or doing something outside the norm, you run into problems. The number one reason for concrete to crack is the amount of water added to the mix. When you add water, you increase the volume of the concrete. When water evaporates out of the concrete, it contracts and that causes the cracking. Soil compaction is secondary, but it takes years for the soil to settle enough to cause any issues. Usually it doesn't even crack. I've remodeled countless homes where the concrete does not touch the dirt under it and there are no cracks. Usually what you with soil that isn't compacted is shifting or movement of the entire structure. Rarely will it be a cracked slab unless it's really extreme.

Yes, to a point. Generally excess water results in low psi concrete. Low psi concrete does not inherently crack because it's more flexible. Generally the large displacement cracks are the result of a base issue. The small alligator cracks on the surface are from excess moisture evaporating from the concrete before the slab cured. However this often results from the slab drying out too quickly and can be solved with curing compounds, blankets or watering the slab. Generally the alligator cracks are more of a cosmetic issue, however they can also be a indicator of something worse: slab curl.

Rebar holds the concrete together. No matter how dry you make your mix, odds are good that there will still be cracks. Most cracks are so small that you never even notice them. Rebar holds the concrete tightly together so the minor cracking remains smooth and unseen.

I would agree with this, but concrete, properly set on a quality base and properly cured will never have a crack in it. Cracks are a sign of a failure. However, the cost to produce the perfect slab also has to be balanced against the level of cracking that is acceptable to the planned use.

To work properly, rebar has to be in the middle of the pad. You have to use chairs under the rebar to do this. It is 100% impossible to spread the rebar and lift it at the same time like some contractors claim to do. In every case, you end up with rebar at the bottom of the pour on top of the dirt or plastic.

Totally agree with this. However to counteract slab curl there is now a push to relocate the bars to the upper 1/3 of the slab. Frankly, I think that one of the advantages to structural fiber is that the material disbursed throughout the slab so it's location is infinite.

Wire is completely worthless because there is no way to place it on chairs, so the contractors lie to the clients about pulling it up while they spread it. They are standing on the wire, spreading thousands of pounds of concrete over it, and usually pretend to pull up the wire a couple of times when they first start spreading the concrete for pictures. Then they get to work spreading the load and quit pretending to lift it. It is 100% impossible to get wire mesh in the middle of a large pad. Wire mesh is great for sidewalks, small pads that you don't have to walk on, and things like that.

Again, I totally agree with this.

Fiber mesh is a product that adds to holding the concrete together when it cracks, but it's a poor replacement for rebar. It's a good extra to add to rebar if you want it. If a pro tells me that he will use fiber instead of rebar, I wouldn't hire him. He just failed his first test of being honest to me.

Ah, here we disagree. Micro fiber is only useful in trying to control the afore mentioned shrinkage cracks resulting from improper curing. Macro fiber is structural and can replace rebar. In fact, I think it might be superior to rebar!

Plastic is used to keep the concrete from drying out too fast when pouring on pourus surfaces. Sand is the worse. When you have the correct mixture of water in the mix, you want it to slowly cure over time. When on certain surfaces, like sand, the water in the concrete is wicked out from the bottom and you end up with a week slab that will not cure properly. It's not needed when pouring on compacted clay, but it doesn't hurt anything if used and it's cheap enough to be good insurance if you are unsure about your soil.

This is true. However placing plastic under the concrete and having a breeze and/or sun hit the slab will dry the top out too quickly resulting in alligator cracking and potentially slab curl. Curing compounds exist for a reason! If you can afford it, wet curing is the ultimate method for preventing curl.

My guess is the biggest reason for the cost increase is the need for the pumper. Around here, they will remove a wall to get the cement truck into position, or bring in a bunch more workers to wheel barrow it to the far side on a ramp made of 2x12's across the top of the rebar.

Even then, there are small portable pumping units that would be appropriate for a job like this. That said, the labor to tie the rebar cage would also be expensive.
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs?
  • Thread Starter
#19  
Hey, if you don't get the base right, you can always redo it when the slab cracks

At this point, I don't know if I even care. I've nailed down way too many details on this, for way too many months, and am left with more questions than answers.

I have solid answers that I'm decently content with, but the current state of the subsoil is only questionable in my eyes. I can't keep wringing my hands over this; a shop is supposed to be fun. And at this point, it ain't.

Every portion of this build has me second guessing myself, so if I have cracks all over the slab, I'll just tell people to 'watch their step' so that they don't trip. :D
 
/ Rebar/ labor costs? #20  
:thumbsup:
The initial contract- a 4in, fiber reinforced at 3,000psi slab was going to be poured in a 30x50 shop.

After being concerned about settling and fill compaction issues, I've wanted to now add 10mil vapor barrier, #4 bar and placed 16oc. The last request was that no water was to be added at the site.

The project manager then stated that my requested items would cost an additional $3,600. I must be out of touch with reality, because the manager is a good dude who shoots it to me straight. Between the rebar and 10mil barrier, that's maybe $700 in material... at the most? He says he needs a pump truck because of the added bar? If you have fill compaction issues , rebar aint gonna help . Resolve the fill issue before pouring the slab .

In his defense, he does not have access to all sides of the shop- but the front door is 12ft tall for his truck. Can you guys educate me why I'm out of line, or is it the rebar labor that is killing this budget? :confused2:
 

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