M59 front drive shaft leak.

Hersheyfarm · Mar 28, 2016

noticed hydro fluid leaking from the front drive shaft housing tube. Anyone changed one? This just showed up when I changed oil and added a little Hydro fluid because it was low. So I assume the fluid level was low enough to not leak from the seal oil I added because it seems to be a pretty good leak.

kcender · Mar 29, 2016

I had the front axle seal replaced in my L45 because fluid was running back the tube and out the drain in the bottom of the trans case.It was done under warranty but the dealer said it only took about a half hour to do.

rScotty · Mar 29, 2016

kcender said:
I had the front axle seal replaced in my L45 because fluid was running back the tube and out the drain in the bottom of the trans case.It was done under warranty but the dealer said it only took about a half hour to do.

Did replacing the seal stop the leak? I'm assuming that the oil came down from the front axle and not forward from the transmission end. All these modern compact tractors use pretty much the same front axle drive mechanism, and I'm glad you guys brought this subject up. It's one I've been wondering about - especially about the lube type and level and measurement method - ever since time I saw that axle type........back about 1975.

Back 40 years ago the manufacturer recommended that the lube for bevel gear drive front axles could range from light hydraulic oil to heavy gear oil - but without any explanation as to why or how a person should chose between such a broad range of dissimilar oils. Today Kubota uses that same front axle and with the same weirdly broad lube spec.....right along with the same lack of explanation. Darned if I can think of any reason why they do that, but they do.

So it's up to the owner to decide which one to use, and after deciding what kind of oil to use then next there's the whole problem of just how level does that axle need to be to measure the oil level? After all, the level is being measured way out on one end. What's happening down at the other end? When using the tractor, we all know that axle oscillates up and down like crazy. What does that mean for oiling? So with that in mind I pull out the dipstick and look at the hash marks showing a fairly narrow range for the oil level and now I've got even more questions.

I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't be too quick to blame the seal if the oil was coming from the front axle and not the transmission. And I wouldn't worry too much about the axle seal even if it did leak a bit...especially if I'd just topped up the system with some light oil. BTW, with that large of a casting, I'd want to check the venting before even thinking about changing the seal. And also take a look at the front axle pivot play like the operator's manual says to do every 600 hrs. Play at that pivot creates a pumping action that could also eat up a seal and cause a leak. My M59 seems to want that adjustment about every 200 hours.

All in all, I like to run this kind of axle with the oil level at the bottom of the acceptable range rather than at the top. I think that Kubota's own spec has given us a lot of leeway here.
Enjoy,
rScotty.

kcender · Mar 29, 2016

RScotty,the seal replacement seems to have stopped the leak but I have only put about 40 hours on the machine since then.When the dealer took the tractor to fix the leak he had it for about a week.He said he could not get the drain pin to show any signs of leakage by running the tractor and was reluctant to split the tractor until he could verify the source of the leak.After speaking with Kubota they recommended the axle seal replacement.If I remember correctly they said the seals had been "upgraded" and the fix was to go back to the older type of seal.I keep a fairly close check on the pin and I have not seen any leakage around it since.I use UDT in the front axle for no particular reason other than that is what the tractors come with when new.As someone once said on here,if it can handle the stresses in the transmission it should be good enough for the front axle.

Hersheyfarm · Mar 29, 2016

well I split the drive shaft cover and slid both ends away from the front axle and the tranny. I also removed the weep plug and left it there over night. Not one drop came out. The puddle from the other night was about 6" and happened over night. I'm thinking I have a very small leak and the shaft cover has been holding the fluid and decided to leak??

rScotty · Mar 30, 2016

kcender said:
RScotty,the seal replacement seems to have stopped the leak but I have only put about 40 hours on the machine since then.When the dealer took the tractor to fix the leak he had it for about a week.He said he could not get the drain pin to show any signs of leakage by running the tractor and was reluctant to split the tractor until he could verify the source of the leak.After speaking with Kubota they recommended the axle seal replacement.If I remember correctly they said the seals had been "upgraded" and the fix was to go back to the older type of seal.I keep a fairly close check on the pin and I have not seen any leakage around it since.I use UDT in the front axle for no particular reason other than that is what the tractors come with when new.As someone once said on here,if it can handle the stresses in the transmission it should be good enough for the front axle.

Well, good on you and Kubota both - not only for having the courage to try something new....but the courage to go back to the old if it didn't work out. 40 hours...hmmm....probably not enough to know, but glad your dealer set you up with the preferred sea. My guess - and that's all it is - is that evenwhen the axle and tranny venting is good, all rotating shaft seals will eventually leak where the seal contacts the shaft. When a shaft seal gets to that age, it makes sense to take an educated look at the fluid range on the dipstick versus how much oil you like to run. And maybe look at the type of oil too.

I don't entirely agree....no, that's too diplomatic.....I don't agree at all with that statement on transmission vs front axle stresses.
But I also think that it doesn't make much difference what type oil we put in Kubota's heavy duty FWD axle on the larger tractors and TLBs. Maybe that's what the author of that statement meant. Because that axle just doesn't have many mechanical problems. If it has a problem at all it seems to be eventual leakage, but that's normal in that kind of construction. A little leakage around the non-pressurized shaft should stand a chance of being controllable with oil type, level, viscosity.
enjoy!
rScotty

rScotty · Mar 30, 2016

Hersheyfarm said:
well I split the drive shaft cover and slid both ends away from the front axle and the tranny. I also removed the weep plug and left it there over night. Not one drop came out. The puddle from the other night was about 6" and happened over night. I'm thinking I have a very small leak and the shaft cover has been holding the fluid and decided to leak??

Hey Hershey. Good to hear you're still having fun. It could be what you say: that the oil level in the front axle just leaked down until it was below the level of the shaft and was held for awhile in the shaft cover. I had the same thing happen and the same shaft cover question you are describing with our old 33hp Yanmar. I ended up replacing the seal, and of course that will fix the problem at the source for awhile. Often a long while.

But today I'd probably first do some simple tests to get more info on just what is going on. First thing I might try is fill the axle back up to max with hydraulic fluid as before, collapse the shaft cover, and see what it looks like in the morning. Hmmm.....If you did that and it leaked, but then you did it again with the oil level sitting at minimum on the dipstick and it didn't leak..... how would you feel then?
rScotty

Hersheyfarm · Mar 31, 2016

The front axle is full, so its never lost any. After I used it yesterday and loaded on trailer I notice a small drip from the weep plug. So I guess I have a main shaft leak or front drive shaft leak.

rScotty · Mar 31, 2016

Hersheyfarm said:
The front axle is full, so its never lost any. After I used it yesterday and loaded on trailer I notice a small drip from the weep plug. So I guess I have a main shaft leak or front drive shaft leak.

Bummer..... Hmmm.....It sure shouldn't do that. But maybe there's a way to live with it for awhile if it's from the Front Axle. Do you load in 4wd? How steep are the trailer ramps? Could most of the leaking be happening then? Maybe you could switch to the alternative 80/90 lube and only fill to the bottom mark? That might tell us something.

And on a different subject entirely but still on M59s. Have you tightened up that front axle pivot bolt play recently? I don't think that fore/aft movement has more than a minor role in any kind of leak, but on mine tightening things up sure sure did improve the way it went over bumps. Loosen the lock nut, take up all the play in the axle pin, back off one flat or a little less, retighten the lock nut and you're done. About the easiest thing I've ever done on the M59. Easier than putting fuel in the tank.
good luck,
rScotty

number two · Mar 31, 2016

rScotty-funny you should mention the front axle pivot adjustment.
Last fall I made that adjustment on my B3030 at the 400 hour service.
It took about two full turns to tighten it up on my pampered tractor.
Now I have a seep -hope I don't get shot down for using UDT.
UDT is/was original fluid for this unit.
Did not notice any difference going over bumps.
Thanks for reading!

rScotty · Apr 1, 2016

number two said:
rScotty-funny you should mention the front axle pivot adjustment.
Last fall I made that adjustment on my B3030 at the 400 hour service.
It took about two full turns to tighten it up on my pampered tractor.
Now I have a seep -hope I don't get shot down for using UDT.
UDT is/was original fluid for this unit.
Did not notice any difference going over bumps.
Thanks for reading!

D
I've tightened mine down 3 times so far. Surprised that you didn't see any change over bumps with that much play. Do you have a loader on it? On mine, tightening the front pivot completely eliminated a sort of clunk-clunk I was hearing and feeling through the steering on bumps. But tightening things up doesn't eliminate it forever; the slop comes back every few hundred hours....or maybe I'm just more particular now because I know I can get rid of it so easily. First time I adjusted it took a couple of turns. After that, only a flat or two

I didn't mean to say that I thought UDT - or any other oil - actually causes a leak. I just think the axle input shaft seal is in a real dirty location - which means the seal is going to wear sooner and as it does then the thinner UDT type hydraulic oils will splash up to hit and maybe seep past a slightly worn seal. I wouldn't think that thick and viscous 80/90 wt. gear oil would do that as much....at least that's my guess. But if the axle pivot allows enough fore/aft movement I'd also imagine that would tend to pump a few drops of oil past the seal regardless of the type of oil. At least that's my theory. As near as I can tell from talking to other mechanical types, so far there's about as much evidence supporting that theory as against it so it sure isn't proven true. As a theory it's still at the stage of sounding more like religion or politics than like science. But at least the theory is good old dumb mechanics rather than politics or religion, so eventually we will know. Time will tell us.

BTW, my M59 came from the dealer with New Holland Multi-G 134 in the hydraulics, tranny, and the front axle because that is what my dealer used when he did the first service on all Kubotas. A year or two later I drained out a few quarts ofthe Multi-G from the front axle (to remove condensation and particles)... and replaced those quarts with 75-90wt gear oil. So far everything works fine, but that could be dumb luck or since our M59 was one of the first ones I like to think it was screwed together right.

BTW, I think your B3030 and the M5200 are both going to be classics. Not as sure about the M59....it maybe should be a classic based on innovation, usefulness, and reliability - but the other thing a classic needs is enough numbers for broad popular support and they just haven't sold many M59s. In that respect it's kinda like the Boomer 8N I'm afraid. But dang! What a pretty tractor that Boomer is even if it didn't sell many! No, I don't have one. In fact, have only seen the Boomer 8n once, and that was years ago at the MF/NH dealer.
Liked it though....
Enjoy, rScotty

mike69440 · Apr 2, 2016

number two said:
rScotty-funny you should mention the front axle pivot adjustment.
Last fall I made that adjustment on my B3030 at the 400 hour service.
It took about two full turns to tighten it up on my pampered tractor.
Now I have a seep -hope I don't get shot down for using UDT.
UDT is/was original fluid for this unit.
Did not notice any difference going over bumps.
Thanks for reading!

So I decide to Check the pivot on my 2000 Hr L39.

I do not recall if I ever tighened it up. I was not really loose, 2-3 flats to snug it up. that good i grease a lot.

But i did notice a bad tie rod end.

#TD030-13700. ASSY ROD, TIE. $148.73 WTF, Kubota is taking pricing lessons from Komatsu?

PS anybody interested in:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...44-upsized-hydraulic-clyinders-loaders-2.html

number two · Apr 2, 2016

rScotty & mike-thanks for your feedback!

I do have a loader and have a 60" box blade on for rear ballast for any loader work.
When I made the adjustment,as soon as I backed off the adjusting screw one hex a drizzle of UDT ran out.

Kind of surprised me as I thought I was doing a good thing for the tractor.
I even used an inch-pound torque wrench for tightening torque value.

Once again,thanks for reading!

Good Luck!

rScotty · Apr 3, 2016

number two said:
When I made the adjustment,as soon as I backed off the adjusting screw one hex a drizzle of UDT ran out.
Good Luck!

What?? Yikes!! Near as I can tell, there shouldn't be any way for UDT to get into that pivot. Hmm....is there a zerk for that front pivot on the B3030? If so, I suppose someone could have shot oil into that zerk fitting thinking they were doing it a favor. And if that happened there is a wee bit of space where a couple of spoonfulls of oil could hide. But seeing oil drizzle out would be about the last thing I'd expect twhen making that adjustment.
I've got an idea, though....
rScotty

Hersheyfarm · Apr 3, 2016

I tightened my front end as well. Neither bolt or locknut was very tight.

Anyways, I absolutely have either a driveshaft leak or a main shaft leak on the tranny. It drips only after use, mainly out of the weep drain. Any Ideals how to tell which it is? I have a cable camera I may send up the weep drain if it will fit. Either way it looks like tranny and motor need to come apart to fix so until it gets really bad I will just add fluid.

Ken · Apr 3, 2016

mike69440 said:
So I decide to Check the pivot on my 2000 Hr L39.

I do not recall if I ever tighened it up. I was not really loose, 2-3 flats to snug it up. that good i grease a lot.

But i did notice a bad tie rod end.

#TD030-13700. ASSY ROD, TIE. $148.73 WTF, Kubota is taking pricing lessons from Komatsu?

PS anybody interested in:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...44-upsized-hydraulic-clyinders-loaders-2.html

I am working on a L3600 and your comment on tie rod made me wonder. Just purchased a TA040 13740 RH tie rod for $198.33 +in bound freight of $15.32. This is the right side with the adjustment screws.
Now there is considerable difference in pricing .

The owner of this tractor never tightened the front bolt and so the front housing TA040-12003 at $727.70
also the 32751-13600 Holder assy $175.87 the assy containing the "Bolt" at HTA01-13500 $ 125.30 Then the oil seals in Hub TC230-13040 AF12 $62.39 each.
And another seal in hub AD02 $25.48 ea. whole bunch of "O" rings Bushings and replacement of broken bolts came to total $1672.39
So there should be reminder in Bold RED to make sure this bolt is properly checked.
Also not mentioning the Labor cost.
There is a "O" ring seal in each Assy so this is method to keep lubrication from housing when flexing to moving losing oil.

Also there is mention of Kubota going back to older type seal for front of propeller shaft into the front gear shaft could the poster of this give numbers of old and new seals?

The case casting is L200 so must be used for several types/ sizes of tractors.

ken

number two · Apr 3, 2016

Thanks for the reply rScotty!
The B series does not have the grease fittings for the pivot like the larger tractors.

Apparently the front axle sump provides the lubrication for the pivot?
I've seen here that BX owners have the same issue.
I have stared at the parts list and there appear to be o-ring seals at each side of the axle.

It's weird that making this normal adjustment created a leak.
Kind of bummed me out really!

I'm OCD enough that I may have to repair this after I semi-retire,should that actually happen.

Once again,thanks for reading.

rScotty · Apr 4, 2016

number two said:
Thanks for the reply rScotty!
The B series does not have the grease fittings for the pivot like the larger tractors.

Apparently the front axle sump provides the lubrication for the pivot?
I've seen here that BX owners have the same issue.
I have stared at the parts list and there appear to be o-ring seals at each side of the axle.

It's weird that making this normal adjustment created a leak.
Kind of bummed me out really!

I'm OCD enough that I may have to repair this after I semi-retire,should that actually happen.

Once again,thanks for reading.

Yeah, I took a look at the parts blowup on Messicks. But still can't force myself to believe that Kubota would lube that axle pivot from the oil in the axle. For one thing, the pivot bushing angular velocities are all wrong for oil to be the preferred lube; it needs grease there. However, if they did make that mistake, then it should be easy enough to plug up the source of the oil and then drill the bushing holder for a proper zerk.
luck with it. I'd do the same as you - just check and add oil until I had the time and inclination to look at it in detail. Might go to a more viscous lube, though.
rScotty

number two · Apr 4, 2016

Thanks again rScotty for your thoughtful reply and research!

I agree to address the issue at some point in time.
Since I'm 70 hours into the fluid hours of service life,I'll stay the course as it's not really leaking much,just an aggravation.

I had some leftover UDT to use up otherwise I may have went with gear oil.
Maybe some other B owners will take a run at adjusting their pivots and give us their feedback?

Once again,thanks for your time!

Adiredneck · Apr 7, 2016

rScotty said:
What?? Yikes!! Near as I can tell, there shouldn't be any way for UDT to get into that pivot. Hmm....is there a zerk for that front pivot on the B3030? If so, I suppose someone could have shot oil into that zerk fitting thinking they were doing it a favor. And if that happened there is a wee bit of space where a couple of spoonfulls of oil could hide. But seeing oil drizzle out would be about the last thing I'd expect twhen making that adjustment.
I've got an idea, though....
rScotty

Hersheyfarm:

I have the exact symptom on my L5240. I get a couple of drips out of the clutch drain after shutting down the machine, but my driveshaft cover also has several drips and when I pulled it off to split the tractor, there was oil trapped in the cover. I do however add UDT to the front Axle. I check and top it off once a month or so.

The transmission SUDT never goes down. Others have suggested that I replace the output shaft seal while I had my machine apart, but only having 50hrs on the machine since it was done by the dealer I bought it from, I am hesitant to mess with the seals. With the fluid loss in the front axle, It is highly likely that the pinion seal is bad in the front axle. Whenever I check my front axle, a hiss of air comes out as I turn the plug out. I know it is under pressure. Maybe fabricating a vent for the fill plug is in order.