Where does it stop?

[s219]

I'll eat my shoe if you can get the front end to lift on your HST (without using the loader or hooking to a stump). I can apply sharp torque spikes via my gears that you can't dream of with fluid power.

When I was back in school getting my AAS in CNC, the machine shop was next door to the fluid power program. The head of that program is a real turd and thinks his program gets more done than we did (when you break it down, we make all his parts and he's nothing without us :laughing: ), but any way... They made a hydro powered rail dragster as a class project. Complete with cage, wing, the whole 9. The students thought they'd be able to do a burnout the whole length of the parking lot because of the calculated torque their pump and motors were capable of producing.

End of the semester arrives, they're all outside amped with pride and anticipation for the spectacle. It'd do about 3mph.

Driving is driving. Doesn't really matter what the vehicle. Tractor, car, truck. If you can shift one, you can shift the other. Not having to shift might be a plus to you, but I don't like the heat or excess fuel consumption a HST has to offer. To each their own.

I haven't met a gear tractor yet that I can run up and down the gears in like I would in a car or truck. Even tractors with synchronized gears are really not good at that. At best the shifter is like a stick in a barrel of coconuts. So that's why I don't see a connection. You do need the right touch with the clutch in both cases, I will say that for sure, but tractor clutches also have their own feel, kind of like a bear trap compared to the dainty and progressive clutches in cars and trucks.

I don't think I can pop a wheelie with my HST, but now you have me intrigued about your gear tractor skills, and I await your video upload. Bonus points if you can ride the wheelie for at least one tractor length...

 

[k0ua]

There is no way you can pop a wheelie with any hydro tractor I have owned and used. The next question I have is why would you want to? Slow steady ever increasing power applied to the ground is one of the virtues of a hydrostatic transmission. I have many times appreciated the ability to apply power in a nice slow even manner to pull over trees etc. I don't understand the usefulness of this wheelie popping application of torque? Perhaps I have missed something?

 

[DK35vince]

I haven't met a gear tractor yet that I can run up and down the gears in like I would in a car or truck. Even tractors with synchronized gears are really not good at that. At best the shifter is like a stick in a barrel of coconuts. So that's why I don't see a connection.

I don't find that true at all.
The synchronized transmission on my tractor shifts up and down through the gears every bit as nice, as easy and smooth as a car.
Shifter is right beside the seat and the shift pattern is nice and tight. As tight as a car if not better.
Years ago I ran an L3600 Kubota shuttle with the synchronized transmission and the shifter beside the seat. It shifted up and down through the gears just as nice.

 

[Green Power]

Big quadtrac with extra Turbos lol...
IN all honesty they are all built overseas in the size that you want. I would check out LS as they seem to be a good bang for your buck. All except for lower brands like Jimna seem to be built near equally well, some people love different paint colors.

 

[arrow]

High range is for road travel only. Try putting the gear in the highest gear and try again. My HST will go over any hill the same model gear will. It's operator error such as this that gives a HST a bad name.

So you do not think a gear would go over a slight incline in it's highest gear? What you are forgetting is that the geared tractor that will not go up that incline at idle most certainly will do so with a few more rpm's. The Mahindra hydro was screaming and would not negotiate the hill until dropped to mid gear and then would do so much more slowly. I'd still call the gear superior in this case.
It is you coming up with blanket statements that may or may not apply but then again, that's what a broad brush attitude tends to create. You like your hydro as many others do but it does not mean it is the end all be all for every manufacturer, every hp range, every would be owner and every situation.
A hydro is only superior in its certain realms just as a gear is superior when in its wheel house.

 

[Oldpath05]

Sounds like genetic engineering is the only real difference here, governed by up-bringing, and body and head functionality. Some like to go by foot, some like to go by hand, some like to go by hand and foot, and some go by the dollar amount< this is I, my L3400 DT was $1,000.00 cheaper then the HST.

 

[teg]

...my L3400 DT was $1,000.00 cheaper then the HST.

My L2800 HST was about the same price as yours... :stirthepot: :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

To each their own... that's why there are as many choices to pick from. :2cents:

{PS. where's the beating a dead horse icon?} Oh, just to add... IT never stops!

 

[mapper]

My 2 cents, I went from a really basic (primitive?) gear tractor (8N) to a modern HST, the new tractor has a bit more horse power, a lot more torque and a whole lot more comfort than the old one. The things I use my tractor for I find the HST makes life much easier. If I'm working close to buildings and structures I can go really slow and under very precise control, I don't feel like one bad slip of the clutch is going to take a chunk out of the house or shop. I also like it for mowing and rototilling, if the implement starts to bog down a bit or you have to go through a tight maneuver the PTO speed is maintained but ground speed can be controlled instantly with a change in foot pressure.
As to the question of treadle or two pedals, I have a JD lawn tractor with two pedals and my MF tractor has a treadle, sometimes I need to adjust my brain a bit going from one to the other. I can't really say that I strongly prefer one or the other.

 

[4570Man]

So you do not think a gear would go over a slight incline in it's highest gear? What you are forgetting is that the geared tractor that will not go up that incline at idle most certainly will do so with a few more rpm's. The Mahindra hydro was screaming and would not negotiate the hill until dropped to mid gear and then would do so much more slowly. I'd still call the gear superior in this case. It is you coming up with blanket statements that may or may not apply but then again, that's what a broad brush attitude tends to create. You like your hydro as many others do but it does not mean it is the end all be all for every manufacturer, every hp range, every would be owner and every situation. A hydro is only superior in its certain realms just as a gear is superior when in its wheel house.

If I was moving when I hit it the the L2550 GST would make it over a slight hill. The L2550 can't take off in the highest gear up even the slightest hill. I never said HST was the end all be all for every HP range. I said HST was better in a compact tractor ( like 45 hp or less) 99 percent of the time. My HST can go up a slight incline ( like 5 degrees) in high range with loaded tires, loader, and backhoe attached. I can climb most hills in medium. In low I can climb any hill the machine is capable of. In low range I'm going to loose traction or tip over backwards before I run out of power.

 

[Jim Timber]

I don't think I can pop a wheelie with my HST, but now you have me intrigued about your gear tractor skills, and I await your video upload. Bonus points if you can ride the wheelie for at least one tractor length...

I don't beat on my equipment, so if you'd like to provide a donor for the demonstration, I'll gladly pilot it to your satisfaction.

K0ua, the usefulness is a matter of being able to deliver a shock load of pull. No matter how hard you try, you can't jerk a chain without having slack in it first with a HST. Being able to deliver max force in an instant is what being able to pop a wheelie demonstrates - to the fullest extent of your traction.

 

[4570Man]

I don't beat on my equipment, so if you'd like to provide a donor for the demonstration, I'll gladly pilot it to your satisfaction. K0ua, the usefulness is a matter of being able to deliver a shock load of pull. No matter how hard you try, you can't jerk a chain without having slack in it first with a HST. Being able to deliver max force in an instant is what being able to pop a wheelie demonstrates - to the fullest extent of your traction.

Assuming the chain was fully tight when you popped the clutch, then you didn't pull any harder than the HST machine. You probably actually pulls less because a lot of your traction was used up trying to accelerate the tractor. I'll hook my HST tractor to a equal or less weight gear tractor with equal tires any day. How is this a useful feature anyway? I have never used a gear tractor that could pop a wheelie with a loader attached anyway. I witnessed a full sized backhoe do this, but it was rolling backwards first. I doubt it could pop a wheelie from a dead stop. The backhoe has a higher HP to weight ratio than a most tractors anyway. BTW my ZTR can pop a wheelie and it's a HST.

 

[jenkinsph]

Never said gear was as easy as hydro.
Some just like the feel of a gear machine in a tractor.
But apparently if their opinion differs from yours they are wrong.

Vince,
My reply was directed to 4570man not you. I have had straight gear, power reverser, partial power shift , full power shift and hydrostatic. I like all of them but for some things such as backing down a pond bank I do feel the hydro is the better choice. Am I politically correct? No, but I am not two faced about these things either and form my opinions based on my own experiences. I was 50 years old when I got my first hydro, before that all were gear tractors of various types. With a gear tractor moving forward or backward down a steep pond bank is not the problem but stopping with tractor brakes can be. If you want to back a gear tractor down a steep pond bank then knock yourself out.

 

[4570Man]

I'll eat my shoe if you can get the front end to lift on your HST (without using the loader or hooking to a stump). I can apply sharp torque spikes via my gears that you can't dream of with fluid power. When I was back in school getting my AAS in CNC, the machine shop was next door to the fluid power program. The head of that program is a real turd and thinks his program gets more done than we did (when you break it down, we make all his parts and he's nothing without us :laughing: ), but any way... They made a hydro powered rail dragster as a class project. Complete with cage, wing, the whole 9. The students thought they'd be able to do a burnout the whole length of the parking lot because of the calculated torque their pump and motors were capable of producing. End of the semester arrives, they're all outside amped with pride and anticipation for the spectacle. It'd do about 3mph. Driving is driving. Doesn't really matter what the vehicle. Tractor, car, truck. If you can shift one, you can shift the other. Not having to shift might be a plus to you, but I don't like the heat or excess fuel consumption a HST has to offer. To each their own.

You better hope your shoe taste good. With the loader removed and the backhoe attached I can pop a wheelie. Most ZTRs can pop a wheelie un modified. I'd like to see a gear tractor with no weight on the back pop a wheelie. A skid steer can pop a wheelie no problem.

 

[Jim Timber]

Assuming the chain was fully tight when you popped the clutch, then you didn't pull any harder than the HST machine. You probably actually pulls less because a lot of your traction was used up trying to accelerate the tractor.

Your HST has to accelerate the tractor just the same, but it can't produce the same thrust.

Never said I'd pop a wheelie with a loader - not enough torque for that even if there was enough traction.

When you hit the max system pressure, you're going to bleed off power. If that's pulling something, pulling against something, or being pulled by something - you're stuck with what ever pressure limit you've got in the transmission and fluid slippage. With a clutch, you're going to stall the engine, or roast the clutch trying. It's just more efficient at transmitting force. Fluid generates heat, and that heat is your fuel going somewhere other than where you wanted it.

If HST was so great, how come the big ag tractors use power shift wet clutched gear transmissions?

 

[4570Man]

Your HST has to accelerate the tractor just the same, but it can't produce the same thrust. Never said I'd pop a wheelie with a loader - not enough torque for that even if there was enough traction. When you hit the max system pressure, you're going to bleed off power. If that's pulling something, pulling against something, or being pulled by something - you're stuck with what ever pressure limit you've got in the transmission and fluid slippage. With a clutch, you're going to stall the engine, or roast the clutch trying. It's just more efficient at transmitting force. Fluid generates heat, and that heat is your fuel going somewhere other than where you wanted it. If HST was so great, how come the big ag tractors use power shift wet clutched gear transmissions?

I never said HST was more efficient. I have never been able to stall the HST in low range. The HST doesn't have to accelerate the tractor because I'm not trying to launch it forward. The big tractors have a completely different task in mind than the average compact tractor.

 

[ultrarunner]

Your HST has to accelerate the tractor just the same, but it can't produce the same thrust.

Never said I'd pop a wheelie with a loader - not enough torque for that even if there was enough traction.

When you hit the max system pressure, you're going to bleed off power. If that's pulling something, pulling against something, or being pulled by something - you're stuck with what ever pressure limit you've got in the transmission and fluid slippage. With a clutch, you're going to stall the engine, or roast the clutch trying. It's just more efficient at transmitting force. Fluid generates heat, and that heat is your fuel going somewhere other than where you wanted it.

If HST was so great, how come the big ag tractors use power shift wet clutched gear transmissions?

It could be due to scale... all of those I know with big tractors also have big fields...

Those I know with small tractors use them for loader and implement around the homestead more than farming.

I'm glad to have choices and it does seem Hydro is becoming more mainstream every year around here.

As with everything... there are always tradeoffs... just take a look at the RTV market... CV, Auto, Dual Clutch, Hydro... just about every option except for conventional gear...

I own a lot more gear than hydro... my CAT Dozers were basically automatics... my little 350C dozer has a reverser which I really appreciate working the hills.

 

[paulfun9]

I'll take my HST over a gear any day. A HST is far superior to a gear on hills.

Please define superior? Because I prefer the gear for most of my tasks around here and one of the main reasons is that the gear always pulls the hills much better than any HST I have ever driven.

 

[Jim Timber]

You better hope your shoe taste good. With the loader removed and the backhoe attached I can pop a wheelie. Most ZTRs can pop a wheelie un modified. I'd like to see a gear tractor with no weight on the back pop a wheelie. A skid steer can pop a wheelie no problem.

My truck can pop a wheelie with 8,000# on the hitch too... Your point? You seem to have completely missed mine.

 

[Cat_Driver]

I never met a man that ever said " This tractor has too much HP" - " I wish I bought one with less HP"