Your thoughts on my basement plans

[EddieWalker]

I've been struggling with this. The great room will have AC ducts along the opposite wall running through the full length porch roof. The HVA system will be on that same wall. There is no way to get a duct across to the other side without it being visable. The ceiling will be solid wood and foam.

My only though is to see if I can put a pipe in the ground under the slab. I don't like this idea, but I don't know why it wont work.

 

[varmint]

I came late to this party, but I thought I'd ask if you have considered using a split system (or two) for your HVAC needs, since you mention ducting problems? Just askin... Don't know much about Texas, but I do know that tornadoes can be best enjoyed from basements!

 

[MossRoad]

Regarding concrete pools floating.... they float! The theory is they float even better than fiberglass pools because the fiberglass pools crack easier on the way out of the ground while the reinforced concrete pools stay intact longer.

Can Concrete (Gunite) Pools Float? Crazy Pictures

DO GUNITE POOLS FLOAT? SIMPLE ANSWER….YOU BET!

http://www.pegroup.com/publications/Tech-201305.html

Here's a story about an underground storm shelter that floated out of the ground in a flood (fiberglass).
Floating Storm Shelter in Oklahoma Raises Questions about In-Gro - KOAM TV 7

And a story about storm shelters and a concrete pool floating out of the ground in OK.
Flooding Causes Metro Man's Pool To Pop Up Out Of The Ground - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Here's one about a storm shelter popping up out of the ground.
http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/Durant-storm-shelter-pops-out-of-ground-303359611.html
What's interesting about this story is they mention there are some FEMA guidelines for storm shelters. That might be interesting reading. Here's a link to a FEMA site with plans, guidelines, etc... http://www.fema.gov/media-library/assets/documents/2009

As for a house floating on a watertight basement.... can't find a thing about that. Everything I found says every basement has cracks and will leak before the house floats. I guess its different than a gunite pool.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Eddie, I read your post on another thread about economy boost ford trucks where you chose the 5.0 V8 because it was proven technology and the turbo V6 was untried or words to that affect.

You really need to follow best building practices for your foundation. Utilize stone drainage, foundation drains, sub pumps or drain to day light. Either use PWF or concrete but put the appropriate drainage and water proofing in.

Your friends here are indulging you and trying to be supportive. That's nice but several have also advised you in a nicer way than me to not try this in ground pool technique.

 

[grinder71]

Have you thought of using ICF,s for your walls instead of the plywood, they go together like legos and you add the rebar to them as you assemble them. They hold 8in,s of concrete and have 2in,s of styrophom on each side and the plastic ties that hold the blocks together, will hold screws if you plan on sheetrocking out the inside. They also sell a thick rubber membrane that sticks to the outside for waterproofing. I used this when I built my house 9 years ago and haven,t had a leak yet and my soil is clay and rock. Google logixs and it will give you a better idea what i,m talking about, there are a lot of different brands out there but this is the one i used. But I still put in a drain tile around the the inside of the footing and a sump with a lid, have,nt put a pump in it yet but it is there if i ever need it.

Mark

 

[riptides]

....Swimming pools that are done in concrete do not float out of the ground. Fiberglass pools do because of the fill material that goes in around them after they are placed in the ground. This fill material becomes a storage location for water to build up until it floats an empty pool upwards. This is why they fill fiberglass pools as they back fill them.

Concrete pools do float, more so if drainage is an issue.

 

[riptides]

Regarding concrete pools floating.... they float! The theory is they float even better than fiberglass pools because the fiberglass pools crack easier on the way out of the ground while the reinforced concrete pools stay intact longer.

A pool I know, floated out of the ground, four to six inches. Since it was reinforced it remained, intact. We filled it with water to settle it, it cracked in numerous places as it settled in.

Poor drainage around the construction site was root cause.

 

[EddieWalker]

Regarding concrete pools floating.... they float! The theory is they float even better than fiberglass pools because the fiberglass pools crack easier on the way out of the ground while the reinforced concrete pools stay intact longer.

Can Concrete (Gunite) Pools Float? Crazy Pictures

DO GUNITE POOLS FLOAT? SIMPLE ANSWER….YOU BET!

http://www.pegroup.com/publications/Tech-201305.html

Here's a story about an underground storm shelter that floated out of the ground in a flood (fiberglass).
Floating Storm Shelter in Oklahoma Raises Questions about In-Gro - KOAM TV 7

And a story about storm shelters and a concrete pool floating out of the ground in OK.
Flooding Causes Metro Man's Pool To Pop Up Out Of The Ground - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Here's one about a storm shelter popping up out of the ground.
http://www.kxii.com/home/headlines/Durant-storm-shelter-pops-out-of-ground-303359611.html
What's interesting about this story is they mention there are some FEMA guidelines for storm shelters. That might be interesting reading. Here's a link to a FEMA site with plans, guidelines, etc... http://www.fema.gov/media-library/assets/documents/2009

As for a house floating on a watertight basement.... can't find a thing about that. Everything I found says every basement has cracks and will leak before the house floats. I guess its different than a gunite pool.

Thank you, that was very interesting!!!!!

 

[BitChin1]

As for a house floating on a watertight basement.... can't find a thing about that. Everything I found says every basement has cracks and will leak before the house floats. I guess its different than a gunite pool. [/QUOTE]

But in this case Eddie is planning to make the concrete watertight with the edpm so it would likely act more like the gunite pool than the cracked concrete foundations.

Eddie you should explore the ICF approach mentioned above - it still needs to be waterproofed, but provides a bit of insulation (to help with condensation) and may simplify form framing (cost is probably a bit more, but if you use less concrete it may be lower overall cost).

Given this is your house and houses need to last a long time (or value goes out the window) they need a strong, solid and DRY foundation - in the end I recommend you pick the construction method that is most likely to get done right and has proven resiliency. do what you can to avoid water getting to the foundation but then provide some means to address/remove the water if/when it does get passed you first levels of defense.

 

[EddieWalker]

Lots of good points and valid arguments against my plan. Knowing my soil and the location is where I'm not too concerned about the floating out of the ground issue. Of course, that also means if I go this route, I'm accepting responsibility for what happens, and will have to deal with it. Besides the just liking my idea, I also wonder if doing it the tried and proven way will give me any greater guarantee of never having any moisture issues? I understand that we tend to only hear about the failures from those who are upset by what has happened, I wonder how many of those basements where done to code and if so, why they failed? Watching Mike Holmes on TV, he does a lot of jobs where basements are leaking. His fix is extremely expensive, and in most of the shows I've seen, somebody cut a corner, or they just didn't do it right. To my knowledge, there are no basement contractors in my part of the world I know of some walk out basements on homes at the lake with water issues, and I feel that most of them are from landscaping and gardens that catch the water and trap it against the foundation. Just heard of another one this morning that flooded from water damming up on the front flower bed.

 

[westcliffe01]

Gravel bed under floor and around foundation perimeter. Both with a clear and downhill slope to the sump, add 1 sump pump and you will have no issues. Of course you will need to landscape so that surface water rolls away from the foundation and not towards it. Settlement after backfill is a common problem that funnels surface water right to the basement wall. Add gutters that do not extend away from the house and you have a recipe for disaster.

How to handle the landscaping if the area is truly flat is always a major question. One approach is to elevate the ground floor a few feet and bring in enough dirt to accomplish a nice gradual slope all around the building. In your case you may not have to bring in dirt since you are going to make a big dirt pile excavating for the basement in the first place.

At the company where I work, the grounds are quite extensive. But it is right next to a small lake, and if you dig down 6 ft you have a swimming pool by the next day. The company decided to put in a 10 million extension with new test facilities, one of which was a big 4wd rolling road dynamometer. The rolls themselves were possibly 4 or 5 ft in diameter and that + the foundations and the motor/alternators that drive or brake the rolls all had to be housed underground in the basement. Some big excavators arrived and dug the big hole. It didn't take long at all.. The next day the hole had 2-3ft of standing water in it. Since there was no better place to put the facility, plan B kicked in. A well driller was hired and sank several 8" wells throughout the construction site. The wells were hooked up and all the plumbing combined to about a 6" diameter steel pipe that was run to a pond a few hundred yards away which is part of a natural drain. Those wells then ran 24/7 for the next 3 months and artificially lowered the ground water in the construction zone to a depth well below that needed for construction.

The contractor came back on site, completed the drainage, gravel bed and poured the foundation, walls and slab. The gravel bed fed several large sump pumps, and now that construction is complete, there is a continual stream from the sump discharge which is holding the water down. Since the height that the water has to be raised is not very high and it discharges to atmosphere, the cost of running the sump pumps is very small compared to operating the $10 million test building. So everyone got what they wanted, except for the 3 month delay to lower the water table in the first place.

Now I should add that the soil in the area of this facility is all glacial deposit sand and gravel, which accounts for the free passage of the water. Eddie, if you have deep clay, the flow of water through the clay will be very slow. If you dig down and reach a gravel layer, then I would for sure give it some time to see if it is active as the path for groundwater flow because that is an altogether different task for a home owner than merely providing drainage and a sump pump.

 

[BitChin1]

I agree with your thinking - do it right and avoid the water in the first place is most important point. The edpm you propose is the backup plan - I think if it is regularly needed then over time it might not be best approach as in heavy clay soil it will be there a long time if it ever gets there in the first place. If you can do it right and convince yourself that it will stay that way there should be no need for waterproofing - most approaches are a temporary barrier as the water passes by (either to daylight, perking down, or to a sump basin)

You might want to get a sample and do a little prototype to see how easy it will be to form seams and how robust it is for pouring concrete

 

[dstig1]

Lots of good points and valid arguments against my plan. Knowing my soil and the location is where I'm not too concerned about the floating out of the ground issue. Of course, that also means if I go this route, I'm accepting responsibility for what happens, and will have to deal with it. Besides the just liking my idea, I also wonder if doing it the tried and proven way will give me any greater guarantee of never having any moisture issues? I understand that we tend to only hear about the failures from those who are upset by what has happened, I wonder how many of those basements where done to code and if so, why they failed? Watching Mike Holmes on TV, he does a lot of jobs where basements are leaking. His fix is extremely expensive, and in most of the shows I've seen, somebody cut a corner, or they just didn't do it right. To my knowledge, there are no basement contractors in my part of the world I know of some walk out basements on homes at the lake with water issues, and I feel that most of them are from landscaping and gardens that catch the water and trap it against the foundation. Just heard of another one this morning that flooded from water damming up on the front flower bed.

Eddie.... You are a contractor. Think about the highlighted section that you wrote a bit more. If it is tried and proven, why would you argue with it this much? Isn't that what you bank your livelihood on? That you use proven methods and materials so you can be assured of a good outcome? Why are you fighting it so much here? It isn't that hard to do a "typical basement" at least for a northern guy. Free draining gravel under slab and outside footings, footing drains, wrap in filter cloth, pull drains to a sump, and provide a path for the sump to be able to pump out if it comes to that. If you don't need to pump it, then little cost was incurred for that. Also make sure to waterproof the outside of the foundation and put 6mil poly, seams sealed directly under the slab (in contact with the concrete). Takes longer to write than to do. Use the Form-a-drain system, and kill 2 birds with one stone.

I really don't get why you asked for advice from the basement dwellers (us northerners) and then don't want to listen to it? Not trying to be a doofus, but there are many here who deal with basements a lot. Just follow best practice that they tell you...

 

[GPintheMitten]

Eddie.... You are a contractor. Think about the highlighted section that you wrote a bit more. If it is tried and proven, why would you argue with it this much? Isn't that what you bank your livelihood on? That you use proven methods and materials so you can be assured of a good outcome? Why are you fighting it so much here? It isn't that hard to do a "typical basement" at least for a northern guy. Free draining gravel under slab and outside footings, footing drains, wrap in filter cloth, pull drains to a sump, and provide a path for the sump to be able to pump out if it comes to that. If you don't need to pump it, then little cost was incurred for that. Also make sure to waterproof the outside of the foundation and put 6mil poly, seams sealed directly under the slab (in contact with the concrete). Takes longer to write than to do. Use the Form-a-drain system, and kill 2 birds with one stone.

I really don't get why you asked for advice from the basement dwellers (us northerners) and then don't want to listen to it? Not trying to be a doofus, but there are many here who deal with basements a lot. Just follow best practice that they tell you...

My sentiments exactly.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Eddie.... You are a contractor. Think about the highlighted section that you wrote a bit more. If it is tried and proven, why would you argue with it this much? Isn't that what you bank your livelihood on? That you use proven methods and materials so you can be assured of a good outcome? Why are you fighting it so much here? It isn't that hard to do a "typical basement" at least for a northern guy. Free draining gravel under slab and outside footings, footing drains, wrap in filter cloth, pull drains to a sump, and provide a path for the sump to be able to pump out if it comes to that. If you don't need to pump it, then little cost was incurred for that. Also make sure to waterproof the outside of the foundation and put 6mil poly, seams sealed directly under the slab (in contact with the concrete). Takes longer to write than to do. Use the Form-a-drain system, and kill 2 birds with one stone.

I really don't get why you asked for advice from the basement dwellers (us northerners) and then don't want to listen to it? Not trying to be a doofus, but there are many here who deal with basements a lot. Just follow best practice that they tell you...

My sentiments exactly.

 

[EddieWalker]

The reason I posted this question is because I'm interested in the pros and cons of it. I realize it's a little outside the box for most, and I appreciate the replies I've received with suggestions to do it the normal way. I might, but I'm not committing to anything until I actually start digging. I'm sure you all are aware that there is code for building a house, and that building code is applied to how they are framed. I'm sure that you also realize that code is considered the minimum way to do it. There are a lot of other ways to build a house, and very few people build houses like we do overseas. There are countries in Europe that have much higher standards, use a lot less energy and in my opinion, have stronger houses they we do here. The same is true for parts of Asia, especially in Japan. Does that mean a house not built the way we all build ours isn't as good?

As for being a contractor, I would never do what I'm suggesting for a client for the simple reason that I don't do basements. I do a lot of bathroom remodels and I'm constantly trying new ideas, products and suggestions from a variety of sources. For how many decades was every shower built the same way? How many centuries where basements built the same way? In fact, how new is the latest method and materials described in the comments been used? The stuff Mike Holmes is pushing is either state of the art, brand new technology, or pretty resent. I know some of the products he uses on his show have failed, he's been sued along with those manufacturers.

I do apologize if I've given the impression that I'm fighting the advice that I've been given. I've learned that the combined wisdom on here is far superior to mine, and in multiple cases, have done just what was suggested, saving myself thousands of dollars and unknown frustration.

 

[dragoneggs]

My sentiments exactly.

Mine too!!!

 

[Streetcar]

The reason I posted this question is because I'm interested in the pros and cons of it. I realize it's a little outside the box for most, and I appreciate the replies I've received with suggestions to do it the normal way. I might, but I'm not committing to anything until I actually start digging. I'm sure you all are aware that there is code for building a house, and that building code is applied to how they are framed. I'm sure that you also realize that code is considered the minimum way to do it. There are a lot of other ways to build a house, and very few people build houses like we do overseas. There are countries in Europe that have much higher standards, use a lot less energy and in my opinion, have stronger houses they we do here. The same is true for parts of Asia, especially in Japan. Does that mean a house not built the way we all build ours isn't as good?

As for being a contractor, I would never do what I'm suggesting for a client for the simple reason that I don't do basements. I do a lot of bathroom remodels and I'm constantly trying new ideas, products and suggestions from a variety of sources. For how many decades was every shower built the same way? How many centuries where basements built the same way? In fact, how new is the latest method and materials described in the comments been used? The stuff Mike Holmes is pushing is either state of the art, brand new technology, or pretty resent. I know some of the products he uses on his show have failed, he's been sued along with those manufacturers.

I do apologize if I've given the impression that I'm fighting the advice that I've been given. I've learned that the combined wisdom on here is far superior to mine, and in multiple cases, have done just what was suggested, saving myself thousands of dollars and unknown frustration.

Eddie
It is one thing to go higher than the typical standards, it is a whole other thing to cut corners and go lower than typical standards. Everyone is telling you that you are cutting corners and you reply that you think you will be ok . I have put in backups to the backup system if the future repairs would be difficult or expensive.

 

[tbrooks26]

I'm not sure what to say on this one either. I do mostly remodels and rot /water damage repair, so normally I'm all for thinking outside the box, and doing things different. Problem is there could be major issues, and no easy way to fix them later. At the very least I think you need a drain tile around the outside, just to negate floating. I guess that may not be too hard to add in later though. Who knows it may work perfectly for as long as you live there, but I feel bad for the next guy, when a contractor comes in and tells him they've got to rip it all out!

 

[EddieWalker]

Again, thank you for the replies and input. I think I have a grasp of what is normally done and that's always an option. What I'm trying to figure out is why my idea of not creating a path for water to get under the basement with gravel would lead to water getting into a basement? I also realize that I'm being a little thick here, but unfortunately, that's just how my brain works. If you do not create a place for water to go, or a path for it to follow, why wold you expect it to go there anyway? I'm on the high ground of a ridge. I've tried digging shallow wells and I've come up dry every time. I've dug trenches and worked all around where the house is and there is no chance of any sort of underwater spring. I have red clay, and when it rains, water runs off of it. The soil around the house and around the basement location will slope away from there. What I'm considering is basically a waterproof plug. I think all basement designs are flawed because of the back used around them, and this back fill is the number one reason water gets down into a basement. It is the path that is created for water to travel under ground where it would not travel if that gravel around the basement had not been placed there.