MF165 massive hydraulic fluid "weep hole" leak

[dcharette]

Hello all!

I'm the proud owner of a 1965 MF165 with an AD4.203 diesel and multi-power transmission which was restored by the previous owner to a near original state about 5 years ago. The only thing they didn't rebuild was the drive train and transmission.

Today I was out plowing and after about an hour of use, I noticed reduced hydraulic pressure and could no longer lift the plow. I got down to find the main "weep hole" under the transmission leaking with a steady stream and the 2nd "weep hole" just under the end of the engine where it bolts to the transmission leaking in droplets about once a second.

I've verified at least that the fluid is NOT engine oil, but appears to be hydraulic/transmission oil. The engine oil dipstick still reads full and the leaking oil is a different color than the engine oil, so that's at least my "verification."

My question is simply what should I be looking for as the cause? I'm guessing that the oil seals on the input shaft to the transmission might be the culprit as they're most likely the originals and potentially 50 years old. Is there anything else in this multi-power transmission that could be leaking?

I was using the multi-power function in low when plowing deep today before the failure and when I had the plow raised switched to high and was making the turns around to re-enter the field and then switching back to low. So, is there anything with that clutch/linkage/valve for the multi-power that could be suspect to this leak?

And finally, the previous owner never utilized the hydraulics, and so is there anything with the hydraulic pump or associated components that could be suspect to cause the leak to pass back to the transmission housing and out the "weep holes?"

Thanks a million for any insight or help you could give me. I just don't want to go to the work of splitting open the tractor without having some sense of confidence of where I'm targeting to make the repair.

Have a nice day!

Dan

 

[DJ54]

There is a hyd. line that comes off the Aux. hyd. pump that activates the Multi-Power. It is half metal tube/half rubber hose. It could be the rubber hose part has a leak. Bad thing is, you need to remove the top of the transmission to get to it.

Then again, it may be the seals, as you mentioned.

Doubt you'll find out exactly what it is, without some disassembly.

I had a 180, that the Multi-Power had gone out on. I found out after I bought it, that they can be very expensive to fix, if not fixed when problems first arise. I had no problems with it, as long as I ran it in the low side. I ended up selling it, and never fixed the Multi-Power, so never got into anything, except repairing the hydraulic pumps..

 

[SIMassey]

Hello all!

I'm the proud owner of a 1965 MF165 with an AD4.203 diesel and multi-power transmission which was restored by the previous owner to a near original state about 5 years ago. The only thing they didn't rebuild was the drive train and transmission.

Today I was out plowing and after about an hour of use, I noticed reduced hydraulic pressure and could no longer lift the plow. I got down to find the main "weep hole" under the transmission leaking with a steady stream and the 2nd "weep hole" just under the end of the engine where it bolts to the transmission leaking in droplets about once a second.

I've verified at least that the fluid is NOT engine oil, but appears to be hydraulic/transmission oil. The engine oil dipstick still reads full and the leaking oil is a different color than the engine oil, so that's at least my "verification."

My question is simply what should I be looking for as the cause? I'm guessing that the oil seals on the input shaft to the transmission might be the culprit as they're most likely the originals and potentially 50 years old. Is there anything else in this multi-power transmission that could be leaking?

I was using the multi-power function in low when plowing deep today before the failure and when I had the plow raised switched to high and was making the turns around to re-enter the field and then switching back to low. So, is there anything with that clutch/linkage/valve for the multi-power that could be suspect to this leak?

And finally, the previous owner never utilized the hydraulics, and so is there anything with the hydraulic pump or associated components that could be suspect to cause the leak to pass back to the transmission housing and out the "weep holes?"

Thanks a million for any insight or help you could give me. I just don't want to go to the work of splitting open the tractor without having some sense of confidence of where I'm targeting to make the repair.

Have a nice day!

Dan

There are seal rings on the input shaft to the transmission that direct hydraulic fluid to the multipower clutch. These rings wear grooves in the area that they seal and start leaking. Try running the multi power in low for an extended time and see if the leak stops. There is no pressure to the multipower clutch in low. Remember it will free wheel with no engine breaking.

If it still leaks, its likely the input shaft seal or the multipower valve in the bell hoiusing.

 

[flusher]

There is a hyd. line that comes off the Aux. hyd. pump that activates the Multi-Power. It is half metal tube/half rubber hose. It could be the rubber hose part has a leak. Bad thing is, you need to remove the top of the transmission to get to it.

Then again, it may be the seals, as you mentioned.

Doubt you'll find out exactly what it is, without some disassembly.

I had a 180, that the Multi-Power had gone out on. I found out after I bought it, that they can be very expensive to fix, if not fixed when problems first arise. I had no problems with it, as long as I ran it in the low side. I ended up selling it, and never fixed the Multi-Power, so never got into anything, except repairing the hydraulic pumps..

Had the same problem with the MP on my 1964 MF135 diesel. Same solution: kept it in MP Low range and ran it like that for about 8 years until I sold it.

 

[banjodunn]

G'day I had a customer with a 178 like that once and found a bolt had come out of the M/P control valve that the valve lever works on, it is visible from the inspection plate under the tractor HOWEVER I could not get it in and tight without splitting the tractor (easy job on those old girls ). I would remove the inspection cover and have a look and see if you can see where it is coming from

Jon

 

[dcharette]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the great feedback. I feel a little more comfortable about the issue now.

I've attached an image of the location of the "weep hole" leaks. I've also got a parts breakdown pic of the transmission. And based on the comments at this point is that when I was using the multi-power in "HI", there was plenty of hydraulic pressure that seeped out around the input shaft and seals due to those sealing rings possibly grinding into the shafts and of course the oil seals being as old as they are. I will hopefully have some time today to refill the transmission with oil and try running the tractor multi-power in "LOW" and see if I get a leak again. If not, I can switch to "HI" and monitor it closely and see if the leaking starts. I suppose if it does, then I know where the leak is.

Does this seem like a reasonable guess/test without harming anything as long as I don't go too long before I see a leak again? Is it possible if the leak is high enough around the input shaft that it could actually spray onto the clutch and cause damage?

Thanks guys!

 

[TomSeller]

That sure looks like a nice restoration job !

 

[SIMassey]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the great feedback. I feel a little more comfortable about the issue now.

I've attached an image of the location of the "weep hole" leaks. I've also got a parts breakdown pic of the transmission. And based on the comments at this point is that when I was using the multi-power in "HI", there was plenty of hydraulic pressure that seeped out around the input shaft and seals due to those sealing rings possibly grinding into the shafts and of course the oil seals being as old as they are. I will hopefully have some time today to refill the transmission with oil and try running the tractor multi-power in "LOW" and see if I get a leak again. If not, I can switch to "HI" and monitor it closely and see if the leaking starts. I suppose if it does, then I know where the leak is.

Does this seem like a reasonable guess/test without harming anything as long as I don't go too long before I see a leak again? Is it possible if the leak is high enough around the input shaft that it could actually spray onto the clutch and cause damage?

Thanks guys!

The one thing that puzzles me is that you say the multipower works in high. Does it seem to engage securely or does it kinda slip in? The multi power hydraulic pressure is fairly low. If the seal rings are leaking, it would reduce the pressure available to shift and hold the clutch in high multipower. If the multipower is not shifting into high securely, the clutch will be slipping and damage the clutch. High cost and major teardown to repair.

On my 135 , I replaced the seal rings because there was leakage into the clutch area. I don't have the leakage anymore but the multipower still doesn't work. I did get it to work one day, shifted really solid, but hasn't lately. I'm not sure whether the pump pressure is low or the rings are leaking fluid internally back into the transmission. I run the multi power in low now, to prevent the clutch from partially engaging and damaging it before I can repair the cause.

If the seal rings are leaking, the oil will run into the clutch disks.

 

[dcharette]

Thanks guys for all the comments!

SIMassey, when I was using the multipower in HI the other day before seeing the leaking, it was shifting smoothly and locking in just fine.

I ran the tractor today for about an hour. I rigged up a bucket underneath the "weep hole" to catch the drippings as I drove around and tested it. And while running it in low, the leak is definitely diminished, but not stopped. Now, once warmed up, I ended up with a drop per second or so.

As well, I've also noticed that there is a sputtering of oil coming out of a window in the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, that pretty much pinpoints the leak to the input drive shaft as it must be seeping through even without the high pressure applied in HI mode on the multipower pushing the oil.

So, it's pretty clear I'll need to split the tractor to get at those seals. But, also, what about the drive shaft that the seal rings go around, could the shaft be worn down now in the position where the rings are? And, if so... is it possible to weld and fill material back in the grooves and machine it back true or would I need to just get all new shafts?

And finally, I have a little bit of plowing yet to do this week before putting the tractor to bed for the winter. If I continue to run it, will I do any damage to the clutch/flywheel area in the bell housing if I watch and maintain my oil levels and just catch these drippings? SIMassey, as you said with your 135 oil leaking onto the clutch discs, were you talking about the clutch discs for the multipower or the main clutch? And is it possible in my condition now as I've described it for oil to get onto the main clutch and cause damage to it?

Thanks all!

Dan

 

[SIMassey]

Thanks guys for all the comments!

SIMassey, when I was using the multipower in HI the other day before seeing the leaking, it was shifting smoothly and locking in just fine.

I ran the tractor today for about an hour. I rigged up a bucket underneath the "weep hole" to catch the drippings as I drove around and tested it. And while running it in low, the leak is definitely diminished, but not stopped. Now, once warmed up, I ended up with a drop per second or so.

As well, I've also noticed that there is a sputtering of oil coming out of a window in the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, that pretty much pinpoints the leak to the input drive shaft as it must be seeping through even without the high pressure applied in HI mode on the multipower pushing the oil.

So, it's pretty clear I'll need to split the tractor to get at those seals. But, also, what about the drive shaft that the seal rings go around, could the shaft be worn down now in the position where the rings are? And, if so... is it possible to weld and fill material back in the grooves and machine it back true or would I need to just get all new shafts?

And finally, I have a little bit of plowing yet to do this week before putting the tractor to bed for the winter. If I continue to run it, will I do any damage to the clutch/flywheel area in the bell housing if I watch and maintain my oil levels and just catch these drippings? SIMassey, as you said with your 135 oil leaking onto the clutch discs, were you talking about the clutch discs for the multipower or the main clutch? And is it possible in my condition now as I've described it for oil to get onto the main clutch and cause damage to it?

Thanks all!

Dan

Sounds like most of your problem is the main seals of the input shsfts and not the seal rings if it shifts solidly. Increased leakage may be due to increased temperature. Been six years since I had it tore down and dont have access to a parts breakdown but I do remember there is at least 1 rubber lipped seal in there. It seems the shafts the seal rings are on wear less than the bore they seal in.

Oil leaking on mine soaked the main clutch and replaced it with a complete rebuilt unit cheaper than the parts to rebuild it myself. The clutch discs on yours are likely oil soaked already and worn to a point that you should replace them while you have it split.

I believe on the 135 the original shafts and bores where the seal rings are located are no longer availble but a new design is at a high cost.

 

[flusher]

I'd replace every elastomer seal I could get to when splitting a tractor. I used to do complete restorations on old tractors where this is standard operating procedure.

Good luck

 

[klancf51]

I'd replace every elastomer seal I could get to when splitting a tractor. I used to do complete restorations on old tractors where this is standard operating procedure.

Good luck

Also there are paper gaskets that you should encounter as you remove pto shaft bearing cover and the input shaft seal housing. I have seen tractors reassembled without gaskets - not a best practice. Look at a MF 165 parts book for reference. Good luck.

 

[dcharette]

Hello everyone!

So, firstly, thanks for all the comments and support with this problem. I've finally had some time to dedicate to splitting the tractor to find out what exactly caused this massive leak.

And, as you can see in the attached pic, the problem was pretty obvious the moment the light of day hit that input shaft. It seems the main seal has cracked apart, rather dramatically.

I wanted to make this posting to at least keep everyone updated on this, as I'm sure it's a bit of curiosity to some of you who enjoy seeing these kinds of things. It's not everyday we get to see a 50 year old tractor torn apart to inspect.

But also, I wanted to further ask the advice of all of you who have been so helpful and encouraging to see if there were some further thoughts on things I should do while I've got this open. Of course, I'll need to correctly identify and get a hold of the seal that has broken, but also I'd like to get a little further in there behind the input shaft cover and replace the other seals and split washers that appear there on the parts breakdown.

And there has been one comment in favor of replacing the clutch, and one comment in favor of cleaning the clutch. So, any further comments regarding the clutch? I know for a fact as I was using this to finish my fall work(about 3 hours of total plowing after I discovered the leak out the weep hole) that hydraulic/tranny oil must have surely got on the clutch as it was sputtering out the top of the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, with that in mind, I'm assuming the clutch has got oil all over it. But I suppose a good dousing with clutch/brake cleaner could take care of that.

And while I like the idea of preventative maintenance, especially while I've got it open... I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to open it up. Most of the time consumed in the process so far was fabricating the wheel stands to hold the rear of the tractor up as I separated it. So, now that is done, I don't see it as such a big chore to open it up again in the future should other issues arise, maybe an hour total of bolts and wiring removal to get that part done.

I'm located in Europe in Czech Republic, does anyone have any idea about how to figure out the correct Massey part numbering for the seals I need to get a hold of? The parts breakdown I have is a full featured shop manual with about 1000 pages, but the parts breakdown doesn't give the Massey numbers, they're only index numbers(1, 2, 3 etc...) for identification on the drawing.

Also, regarding the hydraulic oil... I have a neighbor who is farming on a much larger scale who uses hydraulic oil by the barrel and can give me some for this job to refill when I'm done. It's Shell Spirax S4 TXM. Would this be alright to use or do I need to seek out some other hydraulic/tranny oil for this 1965 MF 165?

Thanks everyone!
Will of course keep everyone updated as this progresses.

 

[SIMassey]

Hello everyone!

So, firstly, thanks for all the comments and support with this problem. I've finally had some time to dedicate to splitting the tractor to find out what exactly caused this massive leak.

And, as you can see in the attached pic, the problem was pretty obvious the moment the light of day hit that input shaft. It seems the main seal has cracked apart, rather dramatically.

I wanted to make this posting to at least keep everyone updated on this, as I'm sure it's a bit of curiosity to some of you who enjoy seeing these kinds of things. It's not everyday we get to see a 50 year old tractor torn apart to inspect.

But also, I wanted to further ask the advice of all of you who have been so helpful and encouraging to see if there were some further thoughts on things I should do while I've got this open. Of course, I'll need to correctly identify and get a hold of the seal that has broken, but also I'd like to get a little further in there behind the input shaft cover and replace the other seals and split washers that appear there on the parts breakdown.

And there has been one comment in favor of replacing the clutch, and one comment in favor of cleaning the clutch. So, any further comments regarding the clutch? I know for a fact as I was using this to finish my fall work(about 3 hours of total plowing after I discovered the leak out the weep hole) that hydraulic/tranny oil must have surely got on the clutch as it was sputtering out the top of the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, with that in mind, I'm assuming the clutch has got oil all over it. But I suppose a good dousing with clutch/brake cleaner could take care of that.

And while I like the idea of preventative maintenance, especially while I've got it open... I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to open it up. Most of the time consumed in the process so far was fabricating the wheel stands to hold the rear of the tractor up as I separated it. So, now that is done, I don't see it as such a big chore to open it up again in the future should other issues arise, maybe an hour total of bolts and wiring removal to get that part done.

I'm located in Europe in Czech Republic, does anyone have any idea about how to figure out the correct Massey part numbering for the seals I need to get a hold of? The parts breakdown I have is a full featured shop manual with about 1000 pages, but the parts breakdown doesn't give the Massey numbers, they're only index numbers(1, 2, 3 etc...) for identification on the drawing.

Also, regarding the hydraulic oil... I have a neighbor who is farming on a much larger scale who uses hydraulic oil by the barrel and can give me some for this job to refill when I'm done. It's Shell Spirax S4 TXM. Would this be alright to use or do I need to seek out some other hydraulic/tranny oil for this 1965 MF 165?

Thanks everyone!
Will of course keep everyone updated as this progresses.

I removed the housing that the multipower valve is mounted on and the throwout bearing rides on. This is where the seal rings for the multi power are located. There is the seal on the end of that housing that failed and also an internal lipped seal in that housing. Manual warns this internal seal must be properly positioned to clear a shoulder on the input shaft. I replaced all lipped seals and seal rings. Replaced the whole clutch with a rebuilt assembly and throwout bearing. I also replaced the clutch disengagement shafts and bushings that were worn. Also the brake shaft bushings. Those bushings are split and were a bear to get back in. I had to machine special pins to push the new bushings in without overlapping. I also had to hold them tight on the pin with a hose clamp. I also rebuilt the multipower valve. Carefull putting it back together in the correct order. Also new copper washers under bolt heads.

As for oil,any oil that meets the Massey M 1129A specification sbould work. Word has it the multipower clutch is real fussy on correct oil. Hope I covered everything.

Great splitting stands!!!

I guess I can also say Hi to a fellow Czech. Both parents ancesters originated in the region of Bohemia. Love my Houska and Kolacky.

 

[klancf51]

Hello everyone!

So, firstly, thanks for all the comments and support with this problem. I've finally had some time to dedicate to splitting the tractor to find out what exactly caused this massive leak.

And, as you can see in the attached pic, the problem was pretty obvious the moment the light of day hit that input shaft. It seems the main seal has cracked apart, rather dramatically.

I wanted to make this posting to at least keep everyone updated on this, as I'm sure it's a bit of curiosity to some of you who enjoy seeing these kinds of things. It's not everyday we get to see a 50 year old tractor torn apart to inspect.

But also, I wanted to further ask the advice of all of you who have been so helpful and encouraging to see if there were some further thoughts on things I should do while I've got this open. Of course, I'll need to correctly identify and get a hold of the seal that has broken, but also I'd like to get a little further in there behind the input shaft cover and replace the other seals and split washers that appear there on the parts breakdown.

And there has been one comment in favor of replacing the clutch, and one comment in favor of cleaning the clutch. So, any further comments regarding the clutch? I know for a fact as I was using this to finish my fall work(about 3 hours of total plowing after I discovered the leak out the weep hole) that hydraulic/tranny oil must have surely got on the clutch as it was sputtering out the top of the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, with that in mind, I'm assuming the clutch has got oil all over it. But I suppose a good dousing with clutch/brake cleaner could take care of that.

And while I like the idea of preventative maintenance, especially while I've got it open... I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to open it up. Most of the time consumed in the process so far was fabricating the wheel stands to hold the rear of the tractor up as I separated it. So, now that is done, I don't see it as such a big chore to open it up again in the future should other issues arise, maybe an hour total of bolts and wiring removal to get that part done.

I'm located in Europe in Czech Republic, does anyone have any idea about how to figure out the correct Massey part numbering for the seals I need to get a hold of? The parts breakdown I have is a full featured shop manual with about 1000 pages, but the parts breakdown doesn't give the Massey numbers, they're only index numbers(1, 2, 3 etc...) for identification on the drawing.

Also, regarding the hydraulic oil... I have a neighbor who is farming on a much larger scale who uses hydraulic oil by the barrel and can give me some for this job to refill when I'm done. It's Shell Spirax S4 TXM. Would this be alright to use or do I need to seek out some other hydraulic/tranny oil for this 1965 MF 165?

Thanks everyone!
Will of course keep everyone updated as this progresses.

Search the AGCO Parts Book under model for "165" using brand "Massey Ferguson", then you will have to determine the Multipower Transmission parts page applicable to your 165. Have casting & serial numbers at hand.

In order to replace the transmission input shaft seal, you are also going to have to split the transmission from the center housing, so as I said, get all of the gaskets and seals you will encounter. I say replace the clutch now: the transmission fluid did not do it any good. Check the rear crankshaft seal - even if it isn't leaking now, I would replace it. I would also replace the rear PTO shaft seal now. Then you will have all the seals and clutch up-to-date and not get into repairing successive failures. The seals are not that expensive or difficult compared to the effort involved in splitting the tractor. That's the way I see it and I do follow my own advice.

Use Permtran 1129A or equivalent.

Good luck.

 

[dcharette]

Hi Guys,

So, quick update on progress. It took a bit of detective work to locate exactly the parts that are needed for this repair. I got access to the AGCO parts books and found that this transmission apparently is a French manufactured version. And with that, the input shaft housing is a little different than what I've found in a lot of other 165 transmission drawings and diagrams that I could find online. There is this oil seal which seats over the end of the input shaft housing on a small rabbitted external section, capping it off and forming a flush fit as if it were one diameter throughout the length of the housing. On mine, you can see the rubber has pulled out and left the metal body of it behind. And, underneath this end cap oil seal, there is an internal rabbit in which a brass bushing was fit. This is what has cracked on mine. Inside this bushing is a single helical spiral that is about 2mm wide which I assume is to allow a little oil into and perform some lubrication between this bushing and the input shaft.

It seems that this bushing is no longer available to purchase, so I'm going to machine a new one. And, it appears the original material it was made from is brass. My question is if any of you guys were in the same position, would you use brass for this, steel or some other alloy in order to make it a little more robust to the stress and perhaps prevent this from happening in the future?

Thanks for the help on this!

Dan

 

[SIMassey]

Hi Guys,

So, quick update on progress. It took a bit of detective work to locate exactly the parts that are needed for this repair. I got access to the AGCO parts books and found that this transmission apparently is a French manufactured version. And with that, the input shaft housing is a little different than what I've found in a lot of other 165 transmission drawings and diagrams that I could find online. There is this oil seal which seats over the end of the input shaft housing on a small rabbitted external section, capping it off and forming a flush fit as if it were one diameter throughout the length of the housing. On mine, you can see the rubber has pulled out and left the metal body of it behind. And, underneath this end cap oil seal, there is an internal rabbit in which a brass bushing was fit. This is what has cracked on mine. Inside this bushing is a single helical spiral that is about 2mm wide which I assume is to allow a little oil into and perform some lubrication between this bushing and the input shaft.

It seems that this bushing is no longer available to purchase, so I'm going to machine a new one. And, it appears the original material it was made from is brass. My question is if any of you guys were in the same position, would you use brass for this, steel or some other alloy in order to make it a little more robust to the stress and perhaps prevent this from happening in the future?

Thanks for the help on this!

Dan

Use phosphor bronze. Harder than brass. Bearings are it's main use.

 

[PatrickS2222]

Hi, reading with interest this situation. What a lovely restoration job - I'd be proud of this machine. :thumbsup: Any chance of a few more pics, please include some of the complete tractor? Happy to see another good one preserved ..... not to mention still working.
I've never had much to do with the MP units though - they're not all that common here, although there are certainly some still about.
However, I'd love to see an exploded view of the parts in that area, including the sealing of the two input shafts. The reason is that it is important to note there is a lip-type seal pressed into the hollow (tubular) PTO input shaft from the clutch 2nd stage. It seals on a journal on the solid transmission input shaft. I'd expect it to be the original, even though the large outer hollow shaft-to-case seal may have been renewed. A couple years ago I put bearings and seals in a non-MP gearbox, including these input shaft seals. The bearing holder for these shafts is removable, although I think the bearing behind the round cover below it required removal, to allow just a little more room for the PTO cluster (counter-shaft) gear to clear the input shaft bearing holder. Nevertheless, I can see where your current problem exists.
While you certainly would want to pull it apart only once, I too would renew every seal in the area, plus any other deficient or damaged part, but your clutch should be Ok. That tractor I overhauled the gearbox on had the lower cover vent hole plated by a canopy frame, causing the bellhousing to fill with oil - to the same level as the gearbox! The starter was also oil-soaked and oil was being thrown out that timing porthole near the rear of the injector pump. What a mess ..... but after washing it all in petrol several times and a few days to dry out, clutch bites as well as ever, starter works like a new one, gearbox as well! :thumbsup: I think I still have some pics somewhere
Therefore, I'd advise you to inspect your clutch condition and see how worn the plate is as well, then decide if you should renew it whilst it is accessible. Remember, it's easy to seperate these tractors at the bellhousing, and replacing a clutch doesn't disturb anything else. Good luck!

 

[PatrickS2222]

How's the battle progressing - are you winning yet?

 

[redman135]

SIMassey on your 135 it sounds like you may have a completely worn out "nose cone". This allows the oil to bypass internally. It mimics perfectly a worn out multipower clutch pack. I had the nose cone remanufactured and got back a text book perfect, gear shift.