Sticking hydro pedal

[halfbottle]

Testing your hydraulic pressures is a good idea, it could help find the problem with your machine. After all, you have to start somewhere to fix it. And if you like the machine, even though it is off warranty, it's definitely worth fixing, no?
If you do the testing or need further info on what pressures to seek out I'm confident that TBN's Team Kioti guy can help you find the needed solutions.
We don't give up on things like this. I know I wouldn't want to settle for a low to no useability tractor. I suspect your experience with machines is similar- you'd like it to work the way it's supposed to.
I believe it can.



Sorry about the confusion- since your issues and his are as you said, similar, I got misled as to who owned what.

Coyote, I appreciate your suggestions and concern. I'll run through the pressure tests but the two dealers still in business that I have spoken with haven't sounded very positive about the probable outcome. Are there any internal filters, screens, or small orifices that you know of that are the common culprit? I'd appreciate any help.

 

[TJP89]

Well Steve, that is all fine and good until you are in a situation that demands the machine decelerate by simply removing your foot from the pedal, it is a SAFETY issue.

Have you ever operated a straight gear machine? Because I'm here to tell you that they don't stop just by letting off the gas, or hitting the clutch even. My CK (2013) has a bit of a sticky pedal, if I'm in a tight place or want to change direction quickly, I let off the pedal then push it the other direction until the desired motion is achieved. I would never expect the tractor, even when brand new, to come to an instant dead stop just because I let off the HST. Often it does, but I'm always ready to hit the brakes or the other side of the HST pedal. HST is great, but we need to remember that letting off the pedal isn't the same a hitting the brakes, we're just putting it in neutral.

 

[halfbottle]

Have you ever operated a straight gear machine? Because I'm here to tell you that they don't stop just by letting off the gas, or hitting the clutch even. My CK (2013) has a bit of a sticky pedal, if I'm in a tight place or want to change direction quickly, I let off the pedal then push it the other direction until the desired motion is achieved. I would never expect the tractor, even when brand new, to come to an instant dead stop just because I let off the HST. Often it does, but I'm always ready to hit the brakes or the other side of the HST pedal. HST is great, but we need to remember that letting off the pedal isn't the same a hitting the brakes, we're just putting it in neutral.

Agreed, they don't come to an instant stop by removing your foot from the controller any more than an automobile would, but they will roll to a stop on flat ground rather quickly, quicker if you're headed uphill, obviously. Like you, most of us operating HST models just go to the other direction of the HST pedal to stop motion without bothering to hit the brake, it's easier and less foot motion. During hillside work the brake pedal gets used a lot more. In the old days cars had a throttle mounted on the steering column that you set and left (a rod sliding over a toothed surface type of design) After many deaths they were redesigned to what we have now. A sticking HST pedal is similar. The Kioti design is very safe when properly functioning but inherently unsafe when the HST pedal is sticking in motion. The apparently common occurrence of this based on the number of complaints about it on tractor forums leads me to believe that it is an issue that Kioti has known about for years and chosen to ignore. I have never received any notification from Kioti about the issue warning me of the possible danger, odd for a company trying to build a reputation for after sales service.

 

[Coyote machine]

Well, the deal is this: A piece of equipment that is supposed to be designed for a few thousand hours of operation without failure of major components fails with with a few hundred hours on it and dealers are bailing out because of a product that they can't stand behind. Not good for a manufacturers reputation. They probably have identified and corrected the flaw in the design of the earlier HST models like mine but that still leaves me with a tractor that I can either spend thousands of dollars fixing, or trade it in at a loss of thousands of dollars, or pass it on to some poor schmuck which I will not do, or get injured one day driving it in it's present condition. We need a legal remedy for dangerous off-road equipment designs. Kioti should simply recognize that they have a responsibility to protect their customers from their design flaws when safety issues are a result of those poor designs. On a positive note I was able to fix the electrical problems over the weekend with contact cleaner, De-oxit, and dielectric grease (many connectors and much time). But it is time to put a new battery in it. Kioti is still the only compact tractor I know of that has serious weight to power which means it won't just sit there and spin the wheels like the many others. Balancing weight and power is fundamental to good design in earth moving equipment. I still like the brand but Kioti seems to be willing to take the hit to their reputation that goes with not standing behind their product in this case. Too bad, glad that the Cat equipment I work around on job sites has the continued support of the company or I'd be dead already.

Here's what I don't get with your machine. Why didn't you get the transmission replaced while it was under warranty? I get that the dealers don't want to do or discourage the replacement, or are generally difficult to deal with on this issue, but as the owner of the machine I'd want a satisfactory remedy. That is what we pushed KK to get from his dealer. It became clear in his situation that a fix wasn't going to fix his tractor woes, and another size/series of Kioti was a better solution for all concerned.
I have no emotional tie to Kioti, especially the CK series that I know little about, except for their common issues, like sticking pedals. I'm in it for finding solutions for each tractor owner so others can benefit from whatever solution 'we' Kioti members can bring to bear.
Having owned and run a foreign auto repair/sales shop for over 10 years I know both sides of frustration as a car owner and as a technician/owner dealing with customer's issues around their cars.
CUTs are a somewhat different breed, in between commercial ag/construction equipment and hobby farm homeowner use equipment.
Sure, Kioti ought to replace every bad transmission, AND each owner should demand no less but reality says if they don't have to, they won't. Just ask GM-ignition switches, VW diesels, Jeep gas tanks, etc. Do people die as a result of companies greed and lack of responsibility? Yes, all too often. I say each consumer is part of the solution in demanding the manufacturer stand behind their products.
Unfortunately for you, time has run out on your warranty for remedy of this issue. We've seen Kioti do out of warranty good will repairs in some situations, though I doubt it will happen in your case. I'm not saying don't ask for it, just that it's a slim to none proposition with this particular issue, IMHO.

 

[halfbottle]

Yes, Coyote I understand. Unfortunately, I didn't initially recognize the problem was loss of power in addition to the sticking pedal and that the sticking pedal might be symptomatic and partially or completely a result of the power loss issue (in part thanks to this forum, thank you KK). Like I've said, the first couple hundred hours this machine performed well, it wasn't until later that I recognized that there was a relationship with power loss and the sticking pedal. By the time that I recognized the power loss problem the warranty had expired and my dealer had "vanished". Are Kioti's designed to be a few hundred hour machine, I don't believe so, they have a design flaw that creates a safety issue that they should correct. I am concerned about my monetary loss in this tractor but even more concerned about my safety, which I now recognize is jeopardized and I can control, and the safety of other unknowing Kioti owners that may have, or are about to have, a similar issue. You are certainly spot on about consumers standing up for their rights, particularly where safety is an issue. So, I'll make some phone calls, write a couple letters to Senator Wyden's aid, the Oregon Attorney General's office and the Consumer Products Safety Commission and see what happens. The last time I did this the AG's office revoked the right of a phone company to sell long distance service in Oregon based on only six similar complaints. Oregon is a consumer proactive state thanks to some good legislators, particularly where agricultural equipment safety is concerned, too many 18 year old's running around with missing forearms from agricultural accidents. Hobby farm tractor operators are a relatively ignorant group of consumers, myself included, when it comes to agricultural equipment and therefore deserving of some regulatory protection where safety is an issue. As far as Kioti goes, they might learn that it is better to have me as a satisfied customer than a dissatisfied customer. It is not likely that Kioti will end up in a Congressional hearing, obviously, but they may be called on to the carpet by some concerned regulatory authority. VW, GM, Jeep and many others have had to answer for their poor safety related designs while knowingly trying to sweep it under the carpet, no reason Kioti shouldn't also have to. BEFORE someone dies or is seriously injured, if they haven't been already. Why did Cub drop this machine?

Thank you so much for your genuine concern and knowledgeable response, greatly appreciated!
J. Douglas Gless

 

[murphy1244]

Let us know how it works out for you. good luck.:crossfingers:

 

[Coyote machine]

No Problem, you're welcome.

Here's what I would do. You can and maybe ought to go the consumer safety route and whatever other remedies are available to you through your state.

In addition, I strongly urge you to contact Kioti corporate and plead your case in a manner in which you let them know the facts, are polite, and ask for a satisfactory solution to your issues under the heading of safety concerns. Explain your dealer dilemma, and other pertinent facts, and urge them to make you whole with your tractor purchase. This method is direct, and if done respectfully can garnish the best outcome for you as a Kioti customer.
I've seen the results numerous times turn out in the consumer's favor. YMMV.

 

[halfbottle]

No Problem, you're welcome.

Here's what I would do. You can and maybe ought to go the consumer safety route and whatever other remedies are available to you through your state.

In addition, I strongly urge you to contact Kioti corporate and plead your case in a manner in which you let them know the facts, are polite, and ask for a satisfactory solution to your issues under the heading of safety concerns. Explain your dealer dilemma, and other pertinent facts, and urge them to make you whole with your tractor purchase. This method is direct, and if done respectfully can garnish the best outcome for you as a Kioti customer.
I've seen the results numerous times turn out in the consumer's favor. YMMV.

Thanks Coyote! Worth a try.

 

[TJP89]

Thanks Coyote! Worth a try.

Definitely worth a try. Just recently there was a guy who had a complete engine failure at a very low hours due to manufacturing defect, I think. He was ready to give up as he was out of warranty, but we convinced him that he should try with Kioti. He pushed he dealer and Kioti, took some effort, but worth it. Kioti replaced his entire engine, although due to a mess up with the dealer he did have to pay labor. Still, brand new engine out of warranty for under a grand was a good resolution, and he is now a satisfied Kioti customer. Kioti is hard to get through to, but once you get high enough up the ladder, they often will work to make a customer happy.

 

[Fuggley]

Yea, I understand, pretty simple, press down with the heal or the toe, not a difficult concept. Like I said, I've been operating it for 394+ hours.

Ok, so you always have a boot on the rocker pedal when it's moving, I don't know why folks need it to accurately self center. Just center it by rocking your boot if you want the tractor to stop moving. I wouldn't risk life or limb on the rocker pedal neutral... use the trans neutral if you want to be safe. And I'm surprised Kioti agreed to replace any hydro pumps because of this. They have had worse after warranty issues with CK tractors and have largely ignored them, eg, the faulty injector pump known issue.

 

[Billrog]

I haven't brought this up until now but last winter when I bought my Kioti there was oil dripping from the tranny and the HST lever was sticking. I phoned the dealer he came out and we tested the tran pressures on the ports at the top of the trans for forward and reverse. I asked him what the should be and he said Kioti never told him. He phoned in the results and they sent a new transmission which the dealer installed ( they had my tractor for 2 days) and it's worked perfect so far 150 hrs. I put plenty of hrs. on my tractor so if there is a problem I'll have plenty of time under warranty to have it repaired. BTW great dealer and service.

 

[Coyote machine]

Ok, so you always have a boot on the rocker pedal when it's moving, I don't know why folks need it to accurately self center. Just center it by rocking your boot if you want the tractor to stop moving. I wouldn't risk life or limb on the rocker pedal neutral... use the trans neutral if you want to be safe. And I'm surprised Kioti agreed to replace any hydro pumps because of this. They have had worse after warranty issues with CK tractors and have largely ignored them, eg, the faulty injector pump known issue.

One shouldn't have to apply a work around for something like a pedal self-centering. You can do what you want on your tractor, (which is model ----/make -----? :confused3.

There are numerous solutions to fix broken injector pumps on CK and DK series Kioti's. In fact there is a sticky on the Kioti owner/user forum that details where to get them rebuilt for a small fraction of what Kioti sells them for new.
Bottom line is things break. Sometimes under warranty, sometimes the day after, and sometimes years later. There is no warranty on life, it's a crap shoot. Some are lucky, some aren't. Point is; ALL brands have defects, Kioti among them.
Safety related issues are top priority, that's why there is a ROPS retrofit program to make older non-ROPS tractors able to be made safer.
Yes, YOU personally can chose to only use the trans neutral lever to be safe, but shouldn't have to based on the design function of the rocker pedal. Having the pedal not operate as designed IS a safety issue, as well as being annoying, and should be addressed with each Kioti customer who has the issue, to work within design parameters.

I missed your location too?!

 

[halfbottle]

Ok, so you always have a boot on the rocker pedal when it's moving, I don't know why folks need it to accurately self center. Just center it by rocking your boot if you want the tractor to stop moving. I wouldn't risk life or limb on the rocker pedal neutral... use the trans neutral if you want to be safe. And I'm surprised Kioti agreed to replace any hydro pumps because of this. They have had worse after warranty issues with CK tractors and have largely ignored them, eg, the faulty injector pump known issue.

Using neutral on a hillside is another good way to die.

 

[halfbottle]

Definitely worth a try. Just recently there was a guy who had a complete engine failure at a very low hours due to manufacturing defect, I think. He was ready to give up as he was out of warranty, but we convinced him that he should try with Kioti. He pushed he dealer and Kioti, took some effort, but worth it. Kioti replaced his entire engine, although due to a mess up with the dealer he did have to pay labor. Still, brand new engine out of warranty for under a grand was a good resolution, and he is now a satisfied Kioti customer. Kioti is hard to get through to, but once you get high enough up the ladder, they often will work to make a customer happy.

Thanks Tony, I needed some positive hope at this point.

 

[halfbottle]

I haven't brought this up until now but last winter when I bought my Kioti there was oil dripping from the tranny and the HST lever was sticking. I phoned the dealer he came out and we tested the tran pressures on the ports at the top of the trans for forward and reverse. I asked him what the should be and he said Kioti never told him. He phoned in the results and they sent a new transmission which the dealer installed ( they had my tractor for 2 days) and it's worked perfect so far 150 hrs. I put plenty of hrs. on my tractor so if there is a problem I'll have plenty of time under warranty to have it repaired. BTW great dealer and service.

Glad to hear of your success with your dealer, I can't understand why some Kioti dealers are getting this problem solved for their customers and others can't. Sounds like Kioti does not have a company-wide consistent policy to deal with it. Not the mark of a company that will have widespread, consistent customer loyalty.

 

[Fuggley]

One shouldn't have to apply a work around for something like a pedal self-centering. You can do what you want on your tractor, (which is model ----/make -----? :confused3. There are numerous solutions to fix broken injector pumps on CK and DK series Kioti's. In fact there is a sticky on the Kioti owner/user forum that details where to get them rebuilt for a small fraction of what Kioti sells them for new. Bottom line is things break. Sometimes under warranty, sometimes the day after, and sometimes years later. There is no warranty on life, it's a crap shoot. Some are lucky, some aren't. Point is; ALL brands have defects, Kioti among them. Safety related issues are top priority, that's why there is a ROPS retrofit program to make older non-ROPS tractors able to be made safer. Yes, YOU personally can chose to only use the trans neutral lever to be safe, but shouldn't have to based on the design function of the rocker pedal. Having the pedal not operate as designed IS a safety issue, as well as being annoying, and should be addressed with each Kioti customer who has the issue, to work within design parameters. I missed your location too?!

Didn't mean to rattle your cage CM. I just don't think a pedal like that was ever designed to provide a dependable safe self centering neutral function anyway. I searched but can't find much regarding the design intent from Kioti except that it is a one foot operated rocker mechanism which implies to me that you couldn't possibly depend on self centering anyway unless you have a very weak ankle.... which my size 12 clodhoppers don't have.
Look... leaving a ck-hst running in gear and depend only on that rocker neutral isn't high on my list of ways to die either. But put a foot on it and you have complete control of your machine.... without the need of an accurate self centering neutral. That is obviously the way the rocker control was designed to function.
I provided a line of detail on Richyvs's injector pump spreadsheet that provides information on my tractor a long time ago. Yes, I own one... and I'd buy another if this one wears out before I do.. 1000 hours +
Keep your foot on the rocker pedal, never trust the self centering neutral function and all is good.

 

[kiotiken]

Didn't mean to rattle your cage CM. I just don't think a pedal like that was ever designed to provide a dependable safe self centering neutral function anyway. I searched but can't find much regarding the design intent from Kioti except that it is a one foot operated rocker mechanism which implies to me that you couldn't possibly depend on self centering anyway unless you have a very weak ankle.... which my size 12 clodhoppers don't have.
Look... leaving a ck-hst running in gear and depend only on that rocker neutral isn't high on my list of ways to die either. But put a foot on it and you have complete control of your machine.... without the need of an accurate self centering neutral. That is obviously the way the rocker control was designed to function.
I provided a line of detail on Richyvs's injector pump spreadsheet that provides information on my tractor a long time ago. Yes, I own one... and I'd buy another if this one wears out before I do.. 1000 hours +
Keep your foot on the rocker pedal, never trust the self centering neutral function and all is good.

I guess I disagree, I think it should dependably return to a neutral position, the two pedal set up on my DK does, every single time. And I think it's a safety issue as well, my beaten up wood shed would probably agree.
I had the exact same experience as described above. Kioti asked my dealer for pressure readings from those ports. I also had a hydraulic leak. I asked my dealer what the pressure was supposed to be and he too said he didn't know, Kioti wouldn't tell him, but the other tractors he'd seen with the problem all had similar readings. He said he thought the pressure was to low.

 

[Amvcane]

Fuggley, the obvious way the rocker control was designed to function is stated in the note box on page 5-6 in the owners manual.

 

[Coyote machine]

Glad to hear of your success with your dealer, I can't understand why some Kioti dealers are getting this problem solved for their customers and others can't. Sounds like Kioti does not have a company-wide consistent policy to deal with it. Not the mark of a company that will have widespread, consistent customer loyalty.

halfbottle, I think what the problem is with consistency is more a dealer to dealer thing than Kioti policy. Not saying Kioti shouldn't have a policy that is enforced company wide, but I think in the business of tractors and dealers some dealers are much better at providing service after the sale than others. This is conjecture on my part, based on limited experience with tractor dealers, but from what I've seen and read on TBN and in real life dealer's ability to handle complicated or expensive problems like HST transmissions varies widely. I suspect a lot are unwilling to risk losing money on jobs that may be way over their heads. I'm not justifying their behavior, just saying it may play into the inconsistent results across the board.
KK's dealer is obviously an exception, as is MIE (Michigan Iron & Equipment). You unfortunately have met with less then par dealer's who did not help resolve your issues, and that is the way I would play your cards with Kioti corporate. I did not mention the recent replacement engine case because I don't want to get your hopes for resolution too high. A blown engine with low hours is one thing, a problematic transmission is something else, and could be handled differently. It all depends, in your case on Kioti's position, and how you present yours. I hope it works in your favor.....

 

[halfbottle]

halfbottle, I think what the problem is with consistency is more a dealer to dealer thing than Kioti policy. Not saying Kioti shouldn't have a policy that is enforced company wide, but I think in the business of tractors and dealers some dealers are much better at providing service after the sale then others. This is conjecture on my part based on limited experience with tractor dealers, but from what I've seen and read on TBN and in real life dealer's ability to handle complicated or expensive problems like HST transmissions varies widely. I suspect a lot are unwilling to risk losing money on jobs that may be way over their heads. I'm not justifying their behavior, just saying it may play into the inconsistent results across the board.
KK's dealer is obviously an exception, as is MIE (Michigan Iron & Equipment). You unfortunately have met with less then par dealer's who did not help resolve your issues, and that is the way I would play your cards with Kioti corporate. I did not mention the recent replacement engine case because I don't want to get your hopes for resolution too high. A blown engine with low hours is one thing, a problematic transmission is something else, and could be handled differently. It all depends, in your case on Kioti's position, and how you present yours. I hope it works in your favor.....

Thanks Coyote, it will take a while to see how this plays out. I'll keep posting as I move along with this.