Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[buickanddeere]

I never said anything about "knock" . . now did I buick? You just made it up. My high performance gas truck engine can run on crappy 87 or 89 octaned ethanol even without "knock". But it runs in a far poorer combustion situation which on a tier 4 or tier 5 tractor requirement would never pass . . and it would do it at inferior power levels and poor mileage numbers.

Put in non ethanol 90 or 91 octane and the engine is transformed. And this at only a 10.1 compression.

Have you noticed the topic was direct injection DI spark ignition engines and not port injection spark ignition engines ?
I did not invent knock or detonation either . Pinging or preignition predates my birth by many decades.

 

[buickanddeere]

Futures buying of crude in 2020 is less than 68.00 per barrel and that is out 4 years. And if you don't understand what that means . .
Ask someone and they will tell you that is a very strong indication that oil will not swing back to the 80 to 125 dollar a barrel level.

Come on Buick, you aren't dealing with children. The markets out 2 and 3 and 4 years out are saying the pricing bracket for oil is dropping because we have the techniques now to harvest PLENTIFUL quantities for many many years at lower prices and better quality.

Tier 5 for diesel will become much easier to accomplish . . but not so for gasoline.

We are dealing with people smart enough to tip the market into $67 futures . In four years time they will be sell $95 futures for eight years from now. Open market price in eight years will be $60.
Tell us they are not purchasers right now locked in paying $75 and higher for crude they locked in contract 2,3 or four years ago .
As for Tier V which limits CO2. Gasoline , the alcohols , LP and NG make up a greater percent of hydrogen per btu than diesel. Hydrogen when burned goes up the stack as water and is of no concern to the EPA. The burning carbon however , with diesel emitting more per btu has the EPA all over it.

 

[buickanddeere]

I never said anything about "knock" . . now did I buick? You just made it up. My high performance gas truck engine can run on crappy 87 or 89 octaned ethanol even without "knock". But it runs in a far poorer combustion situation which on a tier 4 or tier 5 tractor requirement would never pass . . and it would do it at inferior power levels and poor mileage numbers.

Put in non ethanol 90 or 91 octane and the engine is transformed. And this at only a 10.1 compression

 

[AxleHub]

Someone with knowledge of the engine builders messaged me that one builder had done preliminary development work in the past 24 months . . . on gas engine potential in small tractors as we've been discussing.

Apparently the metalurgy requirements to deal with the combination of vibration isolation and substantial cooling jacket needs outweighed any possible pricing incentives or competitive advantages over the maturing diesel developments that the engine manufacturer has ongoing.

And tip over liability with gas is a greater manufacturer concern than with diesel. Apparently the latest studies on small tractor accidents has greatly increased with the types of rural residential terrain tractors are acquired for.

He disclosed no names or country affiliation but apparently the gas concept had been considered for the North American markets. Again . . no plan to continue the preliminary effort.

 

[DarkBlack]

My high performance gas truck engine can run on crappy 87 or 89 octaned ethanol even without "knock". But it runs in a far poorer combustion situation which on a tier 4 or tier 5 tractor requirement would never pass . . and it would do it at inferior power levels and poor mileage numbers.

Another useless empty argument from you. Gee... are gas engines under the tier 4 diesel engine scope?

 

[DarkBlack]

It will require high compression gas engines with clean burn characteristics. A high compression engine is typically defined as an above 9.1 compression ratio. 9.1 and below allows use of regular gas (preferably none ethanol). To attain both cleaner burning and higher compression ratio performance a non-ethanol octane of 90 or above is desired with even higher octane levels for cpmpression ratios above 12.

Failure to use a higher octane in a high compression engine will cause 2 things:

My 11:5 compression ratio motorcycle runs on 87, and was designed to use it. Looks like there's more involved in engine designing than you understand.

 

[DarkBlack]

Here's a relevent read:

"Switch to gas

Some equipment manufacturers are reacting to the new diesel requirements by abandoning diesel engines altogether. For example, Whiteman, a division of Multiquip, has converted one of its ride-on power trowels to gasoline. In this conversion, most of the initial concerns Whiteman had about noise, heat, and balance of the machine were resolved.

“From a horsepower and torque standpoint,” says Dan Roche at Briggs & Stratton. “Our Big Block Vanguard engines match up to the lower end of Tier 4-affected diesel engines. Those diesels are required to meet tighter emissions goals than in the past and the cost and complexity of compliance is making it difficult for OEMs to stick with diesels. That’s why a growing number of OEMs are considering air-cooled gas engines to maintain selling prices while delivering comparable performance.”"
The Impact of Tier 4 Diesel Engines - Concrete Construction

 

[DarkBlack]

Someone with knowledge of the engine builders messaged me that one builder had done preliminary development work in the past 24 months . . . on gas engine potential in small tractors as we've been discussing.

And now this....from the poster of arrogant condescending posts on the previous pages.
I guess now that you have validated it from somewhere other than some of us here, it must be worthy of conversing now.:thumbdown:

 

[SPYDERLK]

-Starting and stoping loaded is harder on an engine than a fixed continuos load in the power band.
(we probably agree on that)

-engines of any petroleum based fuel can run in their optimum power band they were designed for, for a long time.
(we probably agree on that)

-gas engines of years ago withstood the test of time. They were built much stronger then. Some probably stronger than a present diesel of similar hp. So not a great comparison for modern gas or diesel.
(we probably agree on that)

With that said I don't think a gas engine would be a total bust in cuts maybe not the best move but many have no interest in modern emissions diesels they are forced due to lack of options. A gas engine with today's ignition and fuel injection in a tractor would work. Yes some components would have to be beefed up. I don't foresee manufacturers spending money on R+D and production changes for this though. I have gas and diesel trucks and tractors. If I could switch my older gas ford to a multiport injected distributorless engine tomorrow I would because it's industry proven tough. Diesel tractors do their job and do it well I have no argument there.

Yep, pretty much agree with all of that.

I can see no reason to agree with all of that. An engine very happy with short bursts of power often fails due to heat buildup when delivering sustained full power. Running a warmed engine at varied power levels is actually quite healthy.

 

[DarkBlack]

An engine very happy with short bursts of power often fails due to heat buildup when delivering sustained full power.

You're making it up. Engines don't 'often' fail for heat buildup when run at designed power outputs.
What exactly is "An engine very happy with short bursts of power "?

 

[kenmac]

go back to the days when GM built the 366 truck engine.. It was a heavy duty tough engine.. A tractor could be built with a gasoline engine.. I would buy 1 over a new diesel due to all the EPA mandates

 

[SPYDERLK]

You're making it up. Engines don't fail for heat buildup when run at designed power outputs.
What exactly is "An engine very happy with short bursts of power "?

When they fail thats the underlying reason. ... A gas car engine.
Try running one uphill wide open for a hundred miles.

 

[DarkBlack]

You can run a gas engine WOT all day long as long as it's within the designed RPM range. For your example...a car engine. designed for sustained 1,500 to 3,000 rpm operation.
You can keep them pinned all day long. You are purposely trying to confuse redline RPM. That's not the intended normal operating RPM. Do you really think 6k rpm's is the intended run speed?
Please....

 

[AxleHub]

And now this....from the poster of arrogant condescending posts on the previous pages.
I guess now that you have validated it from somewhere other than some of us here, it must be worthy of conversing now.:thumbdown:

And I notice you didn't copy the second half that showed they discontinued development for specific reasons. I'm guessing there was a reason why I was messaged and not you.

 

[SPYDERLK]

You can run a gas engine WOT all day long as long as it's within the designed RPM range. For your example...a car engine. designed for sustained 1,500 to 3,000 rpm operation.
You can keep them pinned all day long. You are purposely trying to confuse redline RPM. That's not the intended normal operating RPM. Do you really think 6k rpm's is the intended run speed?
Please....

Who knows. Its definitely a light duty use - just like a forklift. Typically using a low fraction of the HP.
,,,,You can keep a gas engine pinned for fewer days than a diesel.

 

[bigdeano]

Automotive engines used in large boats run at higher rpm and much higher power outputs than they would if detuned for tractor use. From what I've read they last about 1000 hours between overhauls. It would be much longer at tractor power levels.

Overheating? My Chevy 350 pickup has run wide open for a half hour or longer pulling a mountain pass with a trailer on a 100 deg day without overheating.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Automotive engines used in large boats run at higher rpm and much higher power outputs than they would if detuned for tractor use. From what I've read they last about 1000 hours between overhauls. It would be much longer at tractor power levels.

Overheating? My Chevy 350 pickup has run wide open for a half hour or longer pulling a mountain pass with a trailer on a 100 deg day without overheating.

Are those engines using ambient water for cooling?

Concerning the hillclimb: A good cooling system will do that. That is an average temperature tho. What specific engine parts saw determined how much they suffered. Degradation caused is cumulative. If your 350 is a diesel it suffered less than if gas.

 

[AxleHub]

Overheating? My Chevy 350 pickup has run wide open for a half hour or longer pulling a mountain pass with a trailer on a 100 deg day without overheating.

Sounds fine. But that was only for 1/2 hour. Scut and cut tractors need to run for hour after hour after hour.

Just as importantly . . your radiator didn't overheat but what was youe engine temperature? Wide open . . . Wow . . . Good way to cook your oil or tranny fluid.

 

[GManBart]

So you agree that starting and stopping loaded is harder on an engine than a fixed continuous load? But you still say a lift is a light duty job when it is a constantly starting and stopping application with a heavy weight machine usually over 11,000 LBS of machine or more and then weight is added to it continuously then repeated over and over again with the RPM going up/down and everyplace in between! Actually it sounds a lot like doing a day of loader work with a tractor to me the difference being that we wont all hammer the **** out of our tractor but those warehouse lift drivers are basically nuts and have no respect for those machines its abuse no doubt about it and its a heavy use application no matter how you slice it!

My guess is if you took an engine from a lift that has spent its life in a big warehouse and installed it in a scut it would think it was on vacation!!:laughing:

I never said a fork truck was a light duty cycle. I said it wasn't as heavy duty a cycle as a tractor.

Further, fork trucks don't have anything that puts shock to the engine the way PTO implements can, so they have to be built to withstand that.

If a fork truck engine could survive in a tractor they would have switched tractors over to using engines that small and light (for their power output) years ago.

 

[js5020]

Automotive gas engine were used in ag equipment (combines come to mind) years ago by major manufacturers like JD, MF, AC, Oliver, a few that I had or remember from back in the day,,, Chrysler 255 slant 6, GM 292 6, GM 350 V8, all had governors, and everyone I had would run 24/7 without issues and although some were gas guzzlers they were very cheap to overhaul using most parts from the auto store.