CK35 HST shattered piston at 400 hours

[holeycow]

Kioti is obviously interested in this case. They are in the driver's seat, unless you take that right away from them.

No one in their right mind would assume responsibility based on pictures. Kioti is being cautious, as they should.

Make sure Kioti and the dealer know that you are concerned about costs. Any costs to you are at your discretion. Be careful with that one. If everything is as it apperars to be with that engine, then I can't see why Kioti wouldn't fix it for you. Or at least give you a big break on the cost. Sometimes these kinds of things work out very well, with everybody happy. Good people make that happen.

 

[Tompet]

Chris,

Ay any-rate, I suggest that you allow the dealer Kioti wants to look at your tractor to look at your tractor. You have nothing to lose.

Allow Kioti some measure of control of the narrative and think of this as a plot-twist and allow the story to move forward.

After reading through this interesting thread on a difficult situation and all of the knowledgable advice offered, at this point I agree with the preceding quote (and holycow's response I just read). You wrote after the initial bad experience with your dealer, upon speaking to the owner their response has been very positive. Prior to bringing it back to dealer, I would suggest outlining (to the dealer) what you find acceptable at an absolute minimum, but with the understanding you strongly prefer say action X that he can convey to Kioti and all the possible "diagnosis" charges that you want assurance goes to Kioti.

At least let it run it's course through the corporate beurocracy for a possible positive resolution. You can always go with your local diesel mechanic with his approach as a good backup plan.

Once repaired, I know you disagree with this, but, I would be in the camp of keeping the tractor unless you want to upgrade to a larger machine. Anyway, with what appears as a defective piston play along a little while longer. Best of luck.

 

[deezler]

I don't particularly understand why the topic of replacing the other two pistons is producing any debate. IMO the answer is very simple:

- the engine will be nearly fully disassembled to get the broken piston out. At this time, you really ought to:
- simply unbolt the rods in the other two cylinders and pop the assemblies out. Wash and inspect the pistons very carefully. Including crack detection.
- if anything, at all, is seen on the other two pistons, you replace them.
- also inspect the bores for excessive scratching or scuffing. A little bit of vertical scratching is to be expected given the circumstances, and is ok. But use the fingernail test - if you can get your nail hung up on scratches easily, it's probably needing repair/replacement.
- if the pistons look perfect, you do't need to replace, and throw 'em back in. Simple as that.

After this process, I'm guessing your engine (again, following a full tear down for the full assessment of damage) will run just fine. At which point I hope you do reconsider keeping the tractor to minimize your losses. It really shouldn't be a ticking time bomb if the tear-down inspection and subsequent rebuild are done correctly. Get in there and check everything yourself, and of course, share some high res pics with all us nitpickers here on the 'net.

Good luck!

 

[dfkrug]

Meanwhile... Plan B. I had a chat today with my friendly neighborhood diesel mechanic, whom I have known and given business to for 13 years, about what it would take to do the piston replacement. His blue-sky, no-surprises estimate is around $750 to $1000 for labor, plus parts, which I'm figuring to be in the $350 range (cylinder head gasket, piston, rings). For the one piston. And I can afford that. If it's economically feasible, then I'll do all three. I would feel so much better about selling it that way, it would be so much easier and I'd sleep a lot better with all three pistons replaced. It's just a matter of cost. If there are folks here who know, I might be running part numbers by you to make sure I'm ordering the right stuff. Have you seen a CK series parts list? I have and it's **** confusing.

I looked earlier at my CK25/30 parts book....similar to yours, but your pistons and/or liners are going
to be different. I am curious what Kioti charges for liners.

Anyway, it seems to me that replacement of the liner in the bad hole is going to be more
desirable and important than the other 2 pistons. Disassembly will tell.

Your local mechanic's rough quote is good. He is prob planning to do this without
splitting the tractor. That looks doable, since removing the crankshaft would not
be necessary. The only issue I see is if you have to replace the liner. Wet or dry,
these liners often are hard to remove. The last ones I did took the full force of
my 20T press.

 

[swines]

1. Call the Kioti dealer owner that you spoke with and ask him for an appointment to go over the emails from Kioti with him and the service manager.

2. Print out the emails, go to the dealer, let the owner and service manager read them. Then ask them what they feel the best action would be.

3. Make sure it is clear to them that you are hesitant to expend further money on the tractor until you have some kind of commitment from Kioti. What is their suggestion as to how to accomplish the next step without you paying additional money?

Make sure they understand that everyone likes a good fishing expedition - you just don't want to pay for it.

it's time to get the dealer involved with his supplier and let them run a little inference for you.

 

[CenTex Chris]

Thanks everyone. Based on all of your helpful input, I have decided to schedule an appointment with the dealership owner and his service manager first, before they get the tractor, in order to go over these issues in detail. Basically I need to know at what point will Kioti make a decision about supporting an out-of-warranty repair. I'll ask for a parts & labor estimate on a single piston replacement, removal and inspection of the other two pistons and replacement if required plus a sleeve inspection and replacement if necessary. To what stage of disassembly do they need to reach in order for Kioti to make a determination whether or not to step in and cover it, and if so, how much will they cover, those are my primary questions.

Several times I've been told by this dealership and by some of you folks here that Kioti will definitely want to recover the remains of the piston for in-house examination and failure analysis. That may be true; guess I'm about to find out. However I'm not going to pay further out of pocket in order to provide that for them. If they really want that piston back, they'll have to get it on their own dime, not mine. I'm not about to just hand it over on the chance that they'll come back and say "sorry, we can't help you with this." I'll need up-front assurance that it won't go that way. Otherwise there's no incentive for me to take it to the dealer since my own mechanic is confident he can do the same work for probably much less (depending on the dealer's estimate, of course). I'll have to double-check with my local guy again about sleeve replacement.

Does Kioti really want to see this piston? That's what's going to determine their involvement. As usual, I'll hope for the best but expect the worst. If this job lands at my local mechanic's shop, then I'll keep you entertained with numerous photos of the process (not really an option if the dealer gets it). Either way, we're going to make this thing run again.

 

[Coyote machine]

Your plan sounds good Chris. Keep the communication open with the dealer, and let them know for sure you don't want any step in your process skipped or done without prior approval from you. Best of luck in this endeavor. Hope it goes in your favor all the way.:thumbsup:

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Does Kioti really want to see this piston? That's what's going to determine their involvement. As usual, I'll hope for the best but expect the worst. If this job lands at my local mechanic's shop, then I'll keep you entertained with numerous photos of the process (not really an option if the dealer gets it). Either way, we're going to make this thing run again.

It is commonplace for machine OEMs of every stripe to ask for warrantee parts back. In this way the OEM builds a cumulative case of what and how things have failed so that they can learn from the failures and improve future designs.

 

[CenTex Chris]

It is commonplace for machine OEMs of every stripe to ask for warrantee parts back.

I'd very much like for them to get their parts back. It's their decision.

 

[aczlan]

Several times I've been told by this dealership and by some of you folks here that Kioti will definitely want to recover the remains of the piston for in-house examination and failure analysis. That may be true; guess I'm about to find out. However I'm not going to pay further out of pocket in order to provide that for them. If they really want that piston back, they'll have to get it on their own dime, not mine. I'm not about to just hand it over on the chance that they'll come back and say "sorry, we can't help you with this." I'll need up-front assurance that it won't go that way. Otherwise there's no incentive for me to take it to the dealer since my own mechanic is confident he can do the same work for probably much less (depending on the dealer's estimate, of course). I'll have to double-check with my local guy again about sleeve replacement.

Makes sense. If they want it back, they should pay to have it replaced.

Aaron Z

 

[TJP89]

So the outcome of your CK35 HST leak was what? 2013 CK35s had a 'very common' HST leak issue? Is there factual accessible data on that statement? If so, where, I'd like to read it. You now have a 2013 DK-40? Did you trade it up?

I have the exact same tractor, I have never seen anything on a common hydro leak. If there was such data at time of purchase, I likely would not have gone with the CK. If there is a problem, I would like to see that info.

 

[TJP89]

]If Kioti replaces all three pistons or the entire engine, then sure, I'll consider keeping it. But I think those options are just pipe dreams. If they realistically replace just the one broken piston -- or worse, and even more realistically, if I have to resort to a non-Kioti shop to replace just the one broken piston (because that's all I can afford) -- then every time I climb into the seat I'm going to be wondering how far behind are the other two. Or, what's going to fail next. So yes, for mental health purposes, I'll have to sell it.[/B]



Of course! That goes without saying. It would be a huge help to me if Kioti warrants a piston replacement for a period of time and allows it to be transferable. That would make the tractor so much easier to sell.



I'm happy to disclose it. My game plan moving forward is: I'm not loaning out my tractor anymore.

What doesn't make sense here is this. You can't afford to replace the engine, I get that, I don't have the money to shell out for a new engine myself. But, you're willing to take a hit of probably at least the same amount to sell the tractor if only one cylinder is replaced. It would probably be cheaper to replace the engine, than to replace a piston, sell the old one at a loss, then buy a new tractor. How much do you think a used tractor with a faulty engine is going to go for? I for one wouldn't even consider it. Don't be in such a hurry to sell, it will end up costing you as much as a new engine.

Now, if Kioti under some partial warranty deal or whatever, replaces the cylinder, checks the engine over, runs their tests (I think an oil analysis is a very good idea), and declares the engine good to go, especially with some sort of guarantee, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Chances are this is a one off manufacturing defect, and the rest of the engine is fine. I would be more concerned about what might be damaged then the slight possibility of another failure.

 

[CenTex Chris]

What doesn't make sense here is this. You can't afford to replace the engine, I get that, I don't have the money to shell out for a new engine myself. But, you're willing to take a hit of probably at least the same amount to sell the tractor if only one cylinder is replaced. It would probably be cheaper to replace the engine, than to replace a piston, sell the old one at a loss, then buy a new tractor.

The difference here is outgoing money vs. incoming money. It may be nearly the same amount either way, but for me it's easier to absorb the loss on the sale (in other words, not have that money coming in) than it is to spend it on a high-dollar fix (in other words, take cash away from me now). To put it another way, let's say there's a dollar amount -- say $8000 -- and I have to lose it in one of two ways: it either goes away as cash right now or I lose it as income on the value of a sale. It's less heartbreak if that money disappears on its way in vs. on its way out. If *that* makes sense.

New tractors can be financed. I just did that five years ago and I guess I can do it again if it comes down to that.

 

[Coyote machine]

I have the exact same tractor, I have never seen anything on a common hydro leak. If there was such data at time of purchase, I likely would not have gone with the CK. If there is a problem, I would like to see that info.

I think someone was/is blowing smoke. His signature by his avatar shows a 2013 DK-40. Something isn't adding up, so far. And I've never heard of any HST leak issue with CK series either:confused2:

 

[Threepoint]

[snip]
Several times I've been told by this dealership and by some of you folks here that Kioti will definitely want to recover the remains of the piston for in-house examination and failure analysis. That may be true; guess I'm about to find out. However I'm not going to pay further out of pocket in order to provide that for them. If they really want that piston back, they'll have to get it on their own dime, not mine. I'm not about to just hand it over on the chance that they'll come back and say "sorry, we can't help you with this." I'll need up-front assurance that it won't go that way. Otherwise there's no incentive for me to take it to the dealer since my own mechanic is confident he can do the same work for probably much less (depending on the dealer's estimate, of course).[snip]

This is fine as a negotiating position, but as has been pointed out, you have virtually no leverage in this. Hopefully you won't have to draw that line in the sand, but if Kioti insists they need to examine the actual parts before they can confirm that they will cover the entire cost of an out-of-warranty, I'm not seeing how you'd be farther ahead just saying "No, I'll take it to my own guy and pay for everything myself, thank you." :confused3:

 

[CenTex Chris]

The only way I'm ahead with my own guy is that I've known him for twelve years, he's much closer, less expensive, genuinely interested in doing the work and doesn't mind me being there asking questions and taking pictures. Actually that's not "ahead" at all, but I'm more comfortable that way.

Talked to the service manager at the dealership today about my questions from post #135. He said an hour or two of disassembly in order to get his own pics to appease his Kioti rep, who should be able to make a determination from there. At $55/hr. I can afford that, so it'll go in Monday morning. Then if Kioti says no, I'll pay the shop for their time and to put it back on the trailer.

Seems like this tractor has covered more miles up on the trailer recently than it ever did when it was running.

 

[Fawken]

There was a similar thread that I read on this forum from 2008. The Kioti failed a few months out of warranty due to the intake gasket being improperly installed at the factory. Kioti sent a new motor, but the poster had to pay the labor which he said was $1000. I would think a $1000 for a new motor would be acceptable.

 

[Coyote machine]

There was a similar thread that I read on this forum from 2008. The Kioti failed a few months out of warranty due to the intake gasket being improperly installed at the factory. Kioti sent a new motor, but the poster had to pay the labor which he said was $1000. I would think a $1000 for a new motor would be acceptable.

I seem to remember that situation. $1K is reasonable for a brand new motor for sure. It would be for Chris too, IF Kioti were to offer one for that price. Somehow I doubt they will pony up for it. But, for Chris' benefit, I hope they do 'give' him another engine; it certainly would be the easiest solution.

 

[Coyote machine]

The only way I'm ahead with my own guy is that I've known him for twelve years, he's much closer, less expensive, genuinely interested in doing the work and doesn't mind me being there asking questions and taking pictures. Actually that's not "ahead" at all, but I'm more comfortable that way.

Talked to the service manager at the dealership today about my questions from post #135. He said an hour or two of disassembly in order to get his own pics to appease his Kioti rep, who should be able to make a determination from there. At $55/hr. I can afford that, so it'll go in Monday morning. Then if Kioti says no, I'll pay the shop for their time and to put it back on the trailer.

Seems like this tractor has covered more miles up on the trailer recently than it ever did when it was running.

Some things about your guy confuse me. He told you $8,000 for replacing? Rebuilding your engine? Then he put the contaminated oil back in the motor...
Personally, I would not have done anything with the oil but saved in in a clean container. I would not have allowed that motor to be restarted for any reason, whether you were going to rebuild it or not.
Your guy, is a Kioti tech? I'd only use him as a last resort. Your dealer has all the resources of Kioti service manuals and any special Kioti tools, and trained technicians, etc.
I'd be hesitant to use a shade tree mechanic for whatever the job ends up entailing. JMHO.

 

[swines]

Some things about your guy confuse me. He told you $8,000 for replacing? Rebuilding your engine? Then he put the contaminated oil back in the motor...
Personally, I would not have done anything with the oil but saved in in a clean container. I would not have allowed that motor to be restarted for any reason, whether you were going to rebuild it or not.
Your guy, is a Kioti tech? I'd only use him as a last resort. Your dealer has all the resources of Kioti service manuals and any special Kioti tools, and trained technicians, etc.
I'd be hesitant to use a shade tree mechanic for whatever the job ends up entailing. JMHO.

You need to re-read post #153. The $8,000 number is AN EXAMPLE ONLY - not a dollar amount quoted. You've jumped to a whole bunch of conclusions based on not reading the posts carefully.

Also - it doesn't matter what you would have done. That's called "Monday morning quarterbacking" and is of absolutely NO help in anyway. The OP needs help dealing with the situation as it currently exists - not projections, suppositions and what other people would have done - postulated after-the-fact.