CK35 HST shattered piston at 400 hours

[Ford850]

Just a few thoughts after reading this whole thread...

- There is no way your neighbor could have caused this by working it twice a day for one hour at a time, while moving gravel on a level surface. Bad luck, unlucky timing, fluke poor quality, call it what you want. You should mend any awkwardness with your neighbor if he's a good one. They are hard to find.

- Everyone shares some blame on this one though... you started the tractor to load it and haul to dealer #1 knowing how bad it sounded. Then dealer #1 allowed you to start it again to unload it. And started it again to reload it to take it to dealer #2. Dealer #2 allowed you to start it to unload it. Then after tearing it down and finding the mess they did, the dumped the oil and grit and all back into the engine, and restarted it to load it yet again. Wow. That just seems wrong to me, but I'm not a mechanic.

Good luck on the outcome. I'm hoping Kioti steps up for you.

 

[CenTex Chris]

We don't know if it was the neighbor's use, what he was using the tractor for, or what his level of experience with tractors is.

He's got more experience with tractors than me, actually. Over the long term that is. He's been the definition of a good neighbor and he's helped me out of a jam more than once. I've been comfortable loaning my tractor to him, although when he first borrowed it five years ago I had to yell at him to keep his foot off the clutch because he had never driven a hydrostat before. He's used to larger utility tractors with shuttle shift and mine is the first and only compact hydro he's ever been on. So yes I was a bit suspicious that maybe he was pushing it too hard. It's difficult to say if he was or not. Maybe he just aggravated a pre-ordained failure with a some extra RPM's.

The photo below won't reveal the man's identity so I'm comfortable posting it. This was a work weekend on our private road from five years ago. That's my CK35 on the right. I had just bought it. He's on a borrowed Massey 1533 (bigger, but about the same HP as mine). This will give you an idea of the terrain where this breakdown happened... a straight, level road about 0.8 miles long, moving base gravel with bucket, box and blade. This time it was just him on my tractor doing all the work, but he was taking it easy with frequent breaks due to the heat (as far as I can tell, the tractor did *not* overheat... but he almost did).

- There is no way your neighbor could have caused this by working it twice a day for one hour at a time, while moving gravel on a level surface. Bad luck, unlucky timing, fluke poor quality, call it what you want. You should mend any awkwardness with your neighbor if he's a good one. They are hard to find.

Yeah, I want to keep him. The only awkwardness involved here is that I've got to find a diplomatic way to break the news that I'm not loaning out this or any other tractor anymore. We had both grown used to his frequent borrowing. I'll have to find a nice way of explaining that it's not him, it's me. I'm sure it'll work out fine. He's always been a good guy.

- Everyone shares some blame on this one though... you started the tractor to load it and haul to dealer #1 knowing how bad it sounded. Then dealer #1 allowed you to start it again to unload it. And started it again to reload it to take it to dealer #2. Dealer #2 allowed you to start it to unload it. Then after tearing it down and finding the mess they did, the dumped the oil and grit and all back into the engine, and restarted it to load it yet again.

That's all true. It was also operated in this condition for no small amount of time while doing real work, not just creeping up and down the trailer.

 

[Coyote machine]

Chris,

Here's the bottom line for you and your tractor from my POV. You're a *beggar and a beggar can't be a chooser. By this I mean you're totally at Kioti's mercy, so take the best offer you can get and don't look the horse in the mouth. Worrying about the other two pistons is not a process you can afford. They're better that the one that blew out, since they did not fail when the one did. If Kioti puts your engine back together, and it runs out the dealer's door, count your blessings.

You have little to no leverage over them. If you end up with no further expense, consider yourself very lucky. Right now you have a scrap tractor. Fixed and running is worth thousands whether you keep it or sell it.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it's the truth, and sometimes it hurts. (*I don't mean beggar literally, just figuratively, to make my point, based on the common colloquial expression).
Life is short; come to an agreement, get it done, move on.

Seal whatever deal you can get and move on. It's a motor in a tractor, nothing more or less.

 

[aczlan]

Here's the bottom line for you and your tractor from my POV. You're a *beggar and a beggar can't be a chooser. By this I mean you're totally at Kioti's mercy, so take the best offer you can get and don't look the horse in the mouth. Worrying about the other two pistons is not a process you can afford. They're better that the one that blew out, since they did not fail when the one did. If Kioti puts your engine back together, and it runs out the dealer's door, count your blessings.

You have little to no leverage over them. If you end up with no further expense, consider yourself very lucky. Right now you have a scrap tractor. Fixed and running is worth thousands whether you keep it or sell it.

As I said before, if it were me and Kioti would only replace one piston, I would ask the dealer what it would cost for me to pay for the other pistons (being as they will all probably need to come out to check for cracks). That way you can tell a buyer that all the pistons were replaced (which would make me as a buyer more comfortable with the machine).

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

As I said before, if it were me and Kioti would only replace one piston, I would ask the dealer what it would cost for me to pay for the other pistons (being as they will all probably need to come out to check for cracks). That way you can tell a buyer that all the pistons were replaced (which would make me as a buyer more comfortable with the machine).

Aaron Z

Yeah, IF it were you, BUT it's not, and Chris can't afford to fix it period, so adding extra labor and pistons, etc. won't be happening here.

 

[Teachu2]

Anyone want to hazard a guess what the value would be to Kioti's reputation, brand value, and market share if they were to release a statement that said "This is a very unusual occurrence for Kioti, and Kioti's commitment to quality and customer satisfaction is so vital to our company that we wish to thoroughly investigate this matter. In order to do so, we will need extensive analysis which will require extensive time and effort at our headquarters. Rather than allow our valued customer to suffer the loss of use of his Kioti for this extended time, we are replacing this particular tractor at our expense." I believe such an action would be far more meaningful than $20k in advertising could be.

Many years ago, a story circulated among RV'ers about an incident involving an Airstream trailer. The story was that a recently-retired couple had purchased a new Airstream travel trailer to enjoy in their retirement. While traveling in a mountainous area, they had been involved in a collision and the trailer had separated from their tow vehicle, gone off the road, and rolled several times down a steep mountainside. According to the story, the trailer looked to be intact, but all the interior cabinetry and furnishings had broken loose and destroyed the interior. The Airsteam company rep for the area became involved, and Airstream replaced the trailer so that they could study the wreck and determine if they could improve the design. I heard this story several times, in several states, but never verified it's truth. The story became part of the Airstream legend, long before the Internet.

If Kioti stepped up and replaced this tractor, would it become part of their legend? What could that be worth? I'd bet there's a bean counter at Kioti wrestling with that question....

 

[Coyote machine]

There is NO WAY in heii that Kioti will be replacing this tractor. Period, end of story. It's OFF warranty, there is NO obligation on their part, and nobody is trying to decide whether to replace it with a new one. Total fantasy, Airstream urban legend aside....

 

[Fawken]

Anyone want to hazard a guess what the value would be to Kioti's reputation, brand value, and market share if they were to release a statement that said "This is a very unusual occurrence for Kioti, and Kioti's commitment to quality and customer satisfaction is so vital to our company that we wish to thoroughly investigate this matter. In order to do so, we will need extensive analysis which will require extensive time and effort at our headquarters. Rather than allow our valued customer to suffer the loss of use of his Kioti for this extended time, we are replacing this particular tractor at our expense." I believe such an action would be far more meaningful than $20k in advertising could be.

Many years ago, a story circulated among RV'ers about an incident involving an Airstream trailer. The story was that a recently-retired couple had purchased a new Airstream travel trailer to enjoy in their retirement. While traveling in a mountainous area, they had been involved in a collision and the trailer had separated from their tow vehicle, gone off the road, and rolled several times down a steep mountainside. According to the story, the trailer looked to be intact, but all the interior cabinetry and furnishings had broken loose and destroyed the interior. The Airsteam company rep for the area became involved, and Airstream replaced the trailer so that they could study the wreck and determine if they could improve the design. I heard this story several times, in several states, but never verified it's truth. The story became part of the Airstream legend, long before the Internet.

If Kioti stepped up and replaced this tractor, would it become part of their legend? What could that be worth? I'd bet there's a bean counter at Kioti wrestling with that question....

It would be worth a lot to me as a business owner- and I have owned two businesses. I would make a deal with Chris and he would in exchange agree to allow his story to be used for marketing purposes. One tractor out of thousands, of course I would do it- unless of course that I was concerned it may be a design flaw and there may be many more of these piston failures down the road. There are expressed warranties and implied warranties. If I had a kioti with 1 year left on the warranty I'd be running it day and night. You get to a 1000 hours on a machine that size you're likely in the clear.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Market tag line:

We made ten-thousand tractors.

<Images of assembly line and a zillion tractors, cut to tractors being delivered, cut to tractors being used.>

This one broke.

<cut to CenTex Chris standing next to his tractor>

So we fixed it.

<cut to Chris using his tractor>

<Cross-fade filter>

"Kioti: you can run with it"

<fade to black>

 

[murphy1244]

Market tag line:

We made ten-thousand tractors.

<Images of assembly line and a zillion tractors, cut to tractors being delivered, cut to tractors being used.>

This one broke.

<cut to CenTex Chris standing next to his tractor>

So we fixed it.

<cut to Chris using his tractor>

<Cross-fade filter>

"Kioti: you can run with it"

<fade to black>

:thumbsup: I like it.

 

[Illini22]

Centex Chris, I hope Kioti steps up to the plate for you. Sadly they didn't on my 7 month old ck 35 in 2013. The central Illinois dealer was a total ***. I had the very common hst leak (that they never heard of before mine, lol), not a engine failure.

 

[cat fever]

Here is how a warranty ended up with my parents on a Branson 55hp tractor.
It was out of warranty by only a few months.
Long story short, the air intake between the filter and engine had somehow been pinched to tight. (creating a gap) This allowed unfiltered air to enter the engine. No one could prove how or when this happened. They needed a whole new engine. End result; my parents paid a third, the dealer paid a third and Branson paid a third. And the first thing I looked at on my new Kioti was the air line from filter to engine.

 

[Coyote machine]

Centex Chris, I hope Kioti steps up to the plate for you. Sadly they didn't on my 7 month old ck 35 in 2013. The central Illinois dealer was a total ***. I had the very common hst leak (that they never heard of before mine, lol), not a engine failure.

So the outcome of your CK35 HST leak was what? 2013 CK35s had a 'very common' HST leak issue? Is there factual accessible data on that statement? If so, where, I'd like to read it. You now have a 2013 DK-40? Did you trade it up?

 

[Fawken]

So the outcome of your CK35 HST leak was what? 2013 CK35s had a 'very common' HST leak issue? Is there factual accessible data on that statement? If so, where, I'd like to read it. You now have a 2013 DK-40? Did you trade it up?

Looks like the poster still owns the machine. What possible motive could he have to lie about it? When I bought my Ford 32 years ago the dealer (actually owner) Came by the house twice to see how it was doing. Even gave me a good price ($175) on a used 5' Hico cutter because he knew the wife and I were strapped. From reading here, yes there are some good stories, but IMO too many bad dealer experiences now days. Things won't improve unless people are honest and publicize their bad and good experiences. Isn't that what this place is for?

 

[CenTex Chris]

One breakdown might not cost them as much as repairing or replacing the engine or parts. So they just rather say sorry and don't set a precedent that they do repairs out of warranty.

It's beginning to look that way. I received a response from Kioti customer service earlier today. While I can't re-publish a private email here verbatim, they're basically saying that they won't make a determination to help me out until after the tractor goes back to the dealer. Only then will they make a decision about whether or not to provide any out-of-warranty assistance. So despite management having reviewed several high-resolution photos (bigger and better than what I posted here), there's no up-front commitment at this point. The owner of the dealership, his service manager and several folks on this forum have stated that based on the photographic evidence alone, this issue is clearly a manufacturing or assembly defect and not operator error.

Without an up-front commitment, I'm reluctant to take the tractor back to the dealer again. I had hoped that Kioti would have shown more interest in this situation, but they are not giving me much of an incentive to to do it their way. I haven't replied yet, but my thoughts are basically, if they really want to examine and study the remains of this piston for failure analysis, then they need to assure me now -- before I bring the tractor back to the dealer for the second time -- that I won't incur any further cost beyond what I've already paid (financially and in down time) in order to provide them with it.

Honestly I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but I'm open to your constructive criticism. There may be a call to the dealer about this; I'm not sure yet. Anyway I need to get hard copies of all the service work they've done for me in the past. It's been meticulous and it'll help me sell.

Meanwhile... Plan B. I had a chat today with my friendly neighborhood diesel mechanic, whom I have known and given business to for 13 years, about what it would take to do the piston replacement. His blue-sky, no-surprises estimate is around $750 to $1000 for labor, plus parts, which I'm figuring to be in the $350 range (cylinder head gasket, piston, rings). For the one piston. And I can afford that. If it's economically feasible, then I'll do all three. I would feel so much better about selling it that way, it would be so much easier and I'd sleep a lot better with all three pistons replaced. It's just a matter of cost. If there are folks here who know, I might be running part numbers by you to make sure I'm ordering the right stuff. Have you seen a CK series parts list? I have and it's **** confusing.

I would have been *happy* to appear in that goofy commercial.

 

[Fawken]

Just a couple of points: You are doing a fine job of documenting what the dealer and service manager are telling you. Is there a possibility of getting them to converse with you via email? Also, in your original post you said the dealer had put the tractor at the back of the lot. Did they drive it back there? If so, how many times do you think they moved it in 3 weeks? You told them it was knocking, correct?

 

[CenTex Chris]

It's a motor in a tractor, nothing more or less.

I can't begin to express my gratitude to *everyone* here at TBN who has provided input on this discussion. The advice from some folks in particular -- such as that which I have quoted above -- really stand out to me, but I greatly appreciate everybody here who has taken the time to weigh in on this thing one way or the other. Many thanks.

 

[Coyote machine]

Looks like the poster still owns the machine. What possible motive could he have to lie about it? When I bought my Ford 32 years ago the dealer (actually owner) Came by the house twice to see how it was doing. Even gave me a good price ($175) on a used 5' Hico cutter because he knew the wife and I were strapped. From reading here, yes there are some good stories, but IMO too many bad dealer experiences now days. Things won't improve unless people are honest and publicize their bad and good experiences. Isn't that what this place is for?

A CK-35 is NOT a DK-40. You're the only one questioning if the poster is 'lying'. I have questions I'd like to 'hear' answers about what he posted- they're is no implication of lying from what I'm asking, just looking for clarification about what happened to his machine/situation.
Why don't you find something else to do, other then trying to figure out where I'm coming from, for which you obviously have no clue.

 

[CenTex Chris]

Just a couple of points: You are doing a fine job of documenting what the dealer and service manager are telling you. Is there a possibility of getting them to converse with you via email?

Good Heavens, I hate to say it, because they are fine good people in person, they really are. But honestly I'm not sure that they "do" email.

Also, in your original post you said the dealer had put the tractor at the back of the lot. Did they drive it back there? If so, how many times do you think they moved it in 3 weeks? You told them it was knocking, correct?

You know they drove it back there. They had to! Yes they heard it knocking but the shattered piston had not yet been diagnosed. It sounded like a top-end clatter and at the time we all thought it was a dropped valve or something. A washer stuck under a lifter or something like that. How many times did they move it? I'll bet just once, all the way to the back. When I picked it up, the dealership owner drove it out and up onto the trailer himself. "You've got a serious problem," he said. Yeah, I already knew that.

By the way, previously I had described this CK35 HST as a 2010 model. It is not. July 2010 was when I bought it. The serial number starts with "J" which makes it a 2009 model, for anyone who's interested.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

It's beginning to look that way. I received a response from Kioti customer service earlier today. While I can't re-publish a private email here verbatim, they're basically saying that they won't make a determination to help me out until after the tractor goes back to the dealer. Only then will they make a decision about whether or not to provide any out-of-warranty assistance. So despite management having reviewed several high-resolution photos (bigger and better than what I posted here), there's no up-front commitment at this point. The owner of the dealership, his service manager and several folks on this forum have stated that based on the photographic evidence alone, this issue is clearly a manufacturing or assembly defect and not operator error.

Without an up-front commitment, I'm reluctant to take the tractor back to the dealer again. I had hoped that Kioti would have shown more interest in this situation, but they are not giving me much of an incentive to to do it their way. I haven't replied yet, but my thoughts are basically, if they really want to examine and study the remains of this piston for failure analysis, then they need to assure me now -- before I bring the tractor back to the dealer for the second time -- that I won't incur any further cost beyond what I've already paid (financially and in down time) in order to provide them with it.

Honestly I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but I'm open to your constructive criticism. There may be a call to the dealer about this; I'm not sure yet. Anyway I need to get hard copies of all the service work they've done for me in the past. It's been meticulous and it'll help me sell.

Meanwhile... Plan B. I had a chat today with my friendly neighborhood diesel mechanic, whom I have known and given business to for 13 years, about what it would take to do the piston replacement. His blue-sky, no-surprises estimate is around $750 to $1000 for labor, plus parts, which I'm figuring to be in the $350 range (cylinder head gasket, piston, rings). For the one piston. And I can afford that. If it's economically feasible, then I'll do all three. I would feel so much better about selling it that way, it would be so much easier and I'd sleep a lot better with all three pistons replaced. It's just a matter of cost. If there are folks here who know, I might be running part numbers by you to make sure I'm ordering the right stuff. Have you seen a CK series parts list? I have and it's **** confusing.

I would have been *happy* to appear in that goofy commercial.

Chris,

As a tech, I would like to see firsthand the piston, the piston bits, and be the guy who pops off those main bearing caps and connection rod cap because lighting and camera angle can affect perspective. I suggest the factory offer a goodwill repair if I found piston bits plugging up bottom-end oil gallery (explaining the heating issue on the crank and rod journal), and or verification of an old crack in the piston or piston bits.

I'd offer a different solution if I found an oil gallery plugged by not piston bits or something I could not explain from a failing piston.

Ay any-rate, I suggest that you allow the dealer Kioti wants to look at your tractor to look at your tractor. You have nothing to lose.

Allow Kioti some measure of control of the narrative and think of this as a plot-twist and allow the story to move forward.