Comparison Tier 4 interim with no DPF

[Dewbie]

I'm in the market for a new tractor. Had my heart set on the Kubota M7060HD12 until I realized it had the DPF system. Like I've said in another post we've had nothing put problems out of DPF and DEF systems in big trucks so I'm scared to throw out money on a tractor with the same system.

I was about to give in and buy the Kubota anyways until I ran across Massey Ferguson 4600 series tractors. They are tier 4 interim compliant without the use of DPF r DEF. And I notice Mahindra mPower is the same. They both use a 3 cyl engine. I'm looking at the M7060, 4608, and mPower 75 all 4wd with FEL open platform.

That being said I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the DPF and DEF systems? Would you buy a Kubota with DPF that has to regen or buy a Massey Ferguson or Mahindra instead that doesn't have DPF?

I feel like Kubota would be the better tractor out of the 3 if it wasn't for the DPF but now I feel like Massey has taken the number one spot followed by Mahindra and Kubota last.

Anybody running any tractors with DPF or DEF systems with several hours on them? Any complaints?

 

[OrangeToys]

I'm running the same kubota your wanting. I was dealing with the same issues you are about not wanting the regeneration systems. But I did my research and hadn't heard of any issues if operated correctly. I have 50 hrs and 1 regeneration on mine and I couldn't tell anything was happening. My thought on the tier 4 is pretty simple... I hate it, but that's where are now if you want new diesel stuff. Overall I've been very please so far and glad I bought it.

 

[Dewbie]

I'm running the same kubota your wanting. I was dealing with the same issues you are about not wanting the regeneration systems. But I did my research and hadn't heard of any issues if operated correctly. I have 50 hrs and 1 regeneration on mine and I couldn't tell anything was happening. My thought on the tier 4 is pretty simple... I hate it, but that's where are now if you want new diesel stuff. Overall I've been very please so far and glad I bought it.

Great to hear. Do you idle a lot? I'm bad about idleing mine a lot. We plan to use whatever we buy to finish fencing 30 acres and we cut wood to heat 2 houses so there's a bunch of idle time. We use the FEL a lot too. I heard if you don't run the new tractors with DPF at a high rpm and if you don't work them hard or if you let them idle a lot it causes it to regen.

 

[Renze]

I heard if you don't run the new tractors with DPF at a high rpm and if you don't work them hard or if you let them idle a lot it causes it to regen.

Thats more or less correct. the DPF needs exhaust gas temperature to regenerate. DPFs are trouble causers, mostly they get removed after the warranty has expired. But it might be programmed into the engine ECU with a post-DPF exhaust sensor, or at least SCR (DEF) systems have such sensor.

My friend brought his car to a guy that would empty his DPF for free, if he could keep the valuable metal inside. When the DPF clogs and gives too much backpressure your turbo seals blow. Stripping it was more or less a reliability insurance.

The AgcoPower (formerly Sisu, formerly Valmet) is a Finnish engine with a good reputation for reliability, MF used them ever since the 3680 onwards when the Perkins A6.354 engine was not capable of the 180hp, and later they threw out the Perkins on the higher horsepower tractors because the Sisu was so much more reliable at above 130hp tractor applications because the Perkins engines were designed so compact that they couldnt cool them enough at high power applications, which caused all kinds of distortions and cylinder heads tended to crack. The Sisu reputation for fuel consumption and smokiness wasnt so great, but since Agco pumped cash into the company in the past 10 years, they have also handled the fuel consumption issue quite well. At my previous employer we seriously considered putting them into our wheel loaders, if the application legislation costs wouldnt be so high. The bottom line was that we really wanted to get rid of Deere engines due to the problems with EGR in combination with DPF. Deutz or FPT (New Holland) were strongly considered too because the center of gravity of their emission system was on SCR technology instead of EGR+DPF. There is some background as to why SCR engines are tuned different so that their EGR isnt as harmful as EGR on a DPF engine, but thats a different topic

At low load applications i would definately go for a no-DPF engine, or one which you can delete the DPF after the warranty has expired..

 

[OrangeToys]

Great to hear. Do you idle a lot? I'm bad about idleing mine a lot. We plan to use whatever we buy to finish fencing 30 acres and we cut wood to heat 2 houses so there's a bunch of idle time. We use the FEL a lot too. I heard if you don't run the new tractors with DPF at a high rpm and if you don't work them hard or if you let them idle a lot it causes it to regen.

No I haven't idled much at all. But there's a button on the dash that let's you do a regeneration if parked and there's one that's says auto. If you can just get in the habit to hit the auto button you won't have anything to worry about. I haven't tried the parked regen yet so not sure how that works.
The one regen I had was done in 3 min I think. I looked down saw it was going then looked again it was done.

 

[Grandad4]

Great to hear. Do you idle a lot? I'm bad about idleing mine a lot. We plan to use whatever we buy to finish fencing 30 acres and we cut wood to heat 2 houses so there's a bunch of idle time. We use the FEL a lot too. I heard if you don't run the new tractors with DPF at a high rpm and if you don't work them hard or if you let them idle a lot it causes it to regen.

Running a diesel tractor at idle for extended periods isn't a great idea regardless of it being Tier 4 or not. Unlike big rig diesels with more sophisticated engine management, these small diesels want to be run hard enough to heat the cylinders enough so efficient combustion occurs. Tractors that spend their lives putt-putting around may show premature engine wear. Your tractor - do what you want - but the saying goes that diesel engines live longer and run better if they are worked hard.

 

[Dewbie]

Thats more or less correct. the DPF needs exhaust gas temperature to regenerate. DPFs are trouble causers, mostly they get removed after the warranty has expired. But it might be programmed into the engine ECU with a post-DPF exhaust sensor, or at least SCR (DEF) systems have such sensor.

My friend brought his car to a guy that would empty his DPF for free, if he could keep the valuable metal inside. When the DPF clogs and gives too much backpressure your turbo seals blow. Stripping it was more or less a reliability insurance.

The AgcoPower (formerly Sisu, formerly Valmet) is a Finnish engine with a good reputation for reliability, MF used them ever since the 3680 onwards when the Perkins A6.354 engine was not capable of the 180hp, and later they threw out the Perkins on the higher horsepower tractors because the Sisu was so much more reliable at above 130hp tractor applications because the Perkins engines were designed so compact that they couldnt cool them enough at high power applications, which caused all kinds of distortions and cylinder heads tended to crack. The Sisu reputation for fuel consumption and smokiness wasnt so great, but since Agco pumped cash into the company in the past 10 years, they have also handled the fuel consumption issue quite well. At my previous employer we seriously considered putting them into our wheel loaders, if the application legislation costs wouldnt be so high. The bottom line was that we really wanted to get rid of Deere engines due to the problems with EGR in combination with DPF. Deutz or FPT (New Holland) were strongly considered too because the center of gravity of their emission system was on SCR technology instead of EGR+DPF. There is some background as to why SCR engines are tuned different so that their EGR isnt as harmful as EGR on a DPF engine, but thats a different topic

At low load applications i would definately go for a no-DPF engine, or one which you can delete the DPF after the warranty has expired..

If i got the kubota once warranty expired the first thing I planned to do is remove the dpf. Like you said there might be sensors that can tell if I hollow out the filter. I'll have to dig into that a little more and see. If so I'll have to find someone that can reprogram the computer and remove it all.

Nice to hear the good reputation of AgcoPower. I'm interested in the background as to why they're tuned different.

I am leaning more towards Massey right now. I've tested the kubota and really liked how everything's laid out for the operaror. I haven't tested the other two but I'm going to Massey today.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

The engine won't run without a DPF, or if you screw around with it. Its not something you can mod your way past. Nor am I sure what you would gain. The only problems we have seen is from guys who refuse to do anything but put put around at idle.

A "DPF-LESS" engine is refereed to as a "DOC" diesel oxidation catylist. Its basically 90% the same system as a DPF, it just does not burn. That system has its own set of drawbacks. One telling thing for me is that Kubota Engine makes both DPF and DOC equipped engines, but the tractor division refuses to use the DOC as they don't feel its the right system for a tractor application. I don't understand all the mechanicals but it has to do with the engine having to warm up before operation and then run really hot to keep the exhaust stream clean enough. You still have the soot collection and catylist reaction happening, your just collecting soot rather than burning it off. Mechanically I would expect a low idle application would be worse than with a DPF.. if the engine lets you low idle at all, it may not.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

A Diesel engine doesn't care if there is or is not a DPF. Without a DPF, engine engine will run louder. The ECU knows that a DPF is loading up by a pressure differential sensor that sends a reference voltage back to the ECU. The ECU only knows what data it receives and can be lied too. In the word of tuning, ECUs are lied to all the time.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Dewbie, have you looked around for a gently used Kubota 7040, which doesn't have any of the Tier 4 nonsense on it? I see them around here quite frequently on CL and dealer websites. For putting around, I sure wouldn't want a Tier 4 Final with the DPF.

 

[Dewbie]

I have looked around for a m7040 and the closest one is 3hrs from me and it doesn't have the hydraulic shuttle shift. I've been watching. Maybe I'll find one I'm looking for.

As far as an engine not running if someone messes with the epa exhast crap (DPF,DEF,DOC,EGR,ext..) I have to say that's completely not true. If you know enough about hacking computers and reprogramming computers and engine technology you can bypass it all. I personally don't know how to do it but I've seen newer diesel pickups with DPF EGR deletes running down the road blowing black smoke when they put it to the floor just because they can. There's ways around it its just finding the people that know how to do it.

 

[OrangeToys]

I have looked around for a m7040 and the closest one is 3hrs from me and it doesn't have the hydraulic shuttle shift. I've been watching. Maybe I'll find one I'm looking for.

As far as an engine not running if someone messes with the epa exhast crap (DPF,DEF,DOC,EGR,ext..) I have to say that's completely not true. If you know enough about hacking computers and reprogramming computers and engine technology you can bypass it all. I personally don't know how to do it but I've seen newer diesel pickups with DPF EGR deletes running down the road blowing black smoke when they put it to the floor just because they can. There's ways around it its just finding the people that know how to do it.

My truck is completely deleted, and runs better. It's a matter of time before tractors can be too. There's a company already out tuning the big big tractors..."Tractor Tunes by Calibrated Power Solutions" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/lx_Gt4R9RVM

 

[Dewbie]

My truck is completely deleted, and runs better. It's a matter of time before tractors can be too. There's a company already out tuning the big big tractors..."Tractor Tunes by Calibrated Power Solutions" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/lx_Gt4R9RVM

I've searched for a company that does deletes on tractors. Can't think of the company but they're out of Canada..they said they don't have a program for Kubota yet. Said they're working on a program for Case first. I've still been searching around trying to find someone.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

As far as an engine not running if someone messes with the epa exhast crap (DPF,DEF,DOC,EGR,ext..) I have to say that's completely not true.

Well yes, obviously it can be done. Maybe I should have said that to this point I don't believe anyone has actually pulled it off. From what I have heard, its not going to be as simple as holding voltages. I've heard from factory folks that there are timers and expectations that the ECU has that a burn will need done. If a tractor runs for 20-30-40 hours without seeing increasing back pressure it should throw a code. So your not just telling the ECU everything is okay, you have to fake the burn cycle as well.