Grid-tied solar

[dave1949]

I wouldn't recommend a tracker due to the increased cost and maintenance.

The adjustment I think can make sense is a manual change of the panel angle--just rotating on one axis. No cables, no tracker mechanism, nothing to break or hang-up. Pull a locking pin or two, rotate to the array to season hole desired, put the pin back in. A 5 minute chore you do four times a year. The exact day doesn't matter. All you are doing is optimizing the panel angle for the season, not the day and hour.

I had the same experience though trying to find a location I was happy with for a pole mount system. I never did.

 

[MossRoad]

Tesla Bleeding Cash as Model S Hits Delays | New Car Pricing Insider Tesla Losses Tesla has racked up $1.3 billion in losses since 2008 and doesn’t expect to break even until 2020. The carmaker has been blunt about the challenges and costs of high-volume manufacturing. In an earnings call with analysts on Feb. 11, Tesla CEO and co-founder Elon Musk said the company was going to “spend staggering amounts of money” as it delivers the first Model X SUV to customers this summer, builds the gigafactory for battery production and designs the Model 3 sedan, due in the second half of 2017. “If Apple is starting now it would take a couple of years to catch up to Tesla,” said Ben Kallo, a San Francisco-based analyst for R.W. Baird. “Even after a car is designed, the competitors will have to source batteries in quantity and cost. Tesla is a couple of years ahead on this front.” There’s another big challenge. This is a car we’re talking about. After many decades of building cars, even the auto industry’s venerable players like Toyota and GM have stumbled at the seemingly simple task of making all of their vehicles free of safety defects. Yes, I do believe it, when you don't make money you go out of business. Looks like Apple might buy them with petty cash. Hope Apple doesn't get involved with products no one wants, like electric cars. HS

That's a two and a half year old article. Got anything current?

 

[MossRoad]

I believe in solar, or we wouldn't be going with it, but any investment that breaks even isn't a good investment. I don't understand spending large amounts of money with no gain from it.

My take on solar panels... you can treat it as an investment, or, as I would do, treat it as consumables. If you're going to have to spend $2000 per year on electricity (plus any installation and maintenance costs) for 20 years, that's $40,000+. If you can get solar panels installed for the same price and pay it off over the same period of time, what's the difference? You still spent $40,000+ over 20 years either way. Consumables. Cost of doing business. Cost of living. What ever you want to call it. Its the same amount of money out of your pocket in the same amount of time. Then you have the feeling of not having to deal with the power company, which can be great. But think of this.... the power company has spare wires, spare transformers, spare poles, etc... on hand. If a tree falls on your power lines, they come out and fix it. If a tree falls on your solar panels, or your inverter goes out, or some other item fails, who's gonna respond to fix it? Will they have spares on hand or are you going to have to wait for some exotic (maybe obsolete in 15 years) part to ship from Denmark?

Weigh it out carefully before you commit.

 

[SirReal63]

To me the difference would be the interest you are paying on 40 grand. It gets worse when someone doesn't have ready access to that cash, takes out a second mortgage to pay for it and now has the added pain of a second mortgage, interest and the absolute need in making those payments. For many it makes sense, for many it does not. If someone has to financially burden themselves, they better make sure they are doing better than break even. If someone is in a high electrical rate area or on a tiered system it may make sense to take on the financial burden, but those who have cheap electricity it could be a financial mistake.

 

[MossRoad]

To me the difference would be the interest you are paying on 40 grand. It gets worse when someone doesn't have ready access to that cash, takes out a second mortgage to pay for it and now has the added pain of a second mortgage, interest and the absolute need in making those payments. For many it makes sense, for many it does not. If someone has to financially burden themselves, they better make sure they are doing better than break even. If someone is in a high electrical rate area or on a tiered system it may make sense to take on the financial burden, but those who have cheap electricity it could be a financial mistake.

You can say that about any purchase, really. Cars, homes, solar panels, college education, etc.... gotta consider the consequences of large purchases.

 

[houstonscott]

My take on solar panels... you can treat it as an investment, or, as I would do, treat it as consumables. If you're going to have to spend $2000 per year on electricity (plus any installation and maintenance costs) for 20 years, that's $40,000+. If you can get solar panels installed for the same price and pay it off over the same period of time, what's the difference? You still spent $40,000+ over 20 years either way. Consumables. Cost of doing business. Cost of living. What ever you want to call it. Its the same amount of money out of your pocket in the same amount of time. Then you have the feeling of not having to deal with the power company, which can be great. But think of this.... the power company has spare wires, spare transformers, spare poles, etc... on hand. If a tree falls on your power lines, they come out and fix it. If a tree falls on your solar panels, or your inverter goes out, or some other item fails, who's gonna respond to fix it? Will they have spares on hand or are you going to have to wait for some exotic (maybe obsolete in 15 years) part to ship from Denmark? Weigh it out carefully before you commit.

You don't even factor in the initial cost of the $40000 against being invested over the period. The money might be better invested, to buy electricity, rather than to pay for electric infrastructure so you can produce on your own. HS

 

[Scooby074]

If I had the money and intended to be in this house longer, than Id be hard into having some solar installed. Our rates here go up and up. Buying some PVs is a hedge against that. If Im going to spend the $20k anyways, why not pay myself with it as opposed to burning it by giving it to the power co. Considering what were paying now, $20k is only about 8.3 years of power. Panels last well over 20 years. Its a good investment.

 

[houstonscott]

If I had the money and intended to be in this house longer, than Id be hard into having some solar installed. Our rates here go up and up. Buying some PVs is a hedge against that. If Im going to spend the $20k anyways, why not pay myself with it as opposed to burning it by giving it to the power co. Considering what were paying now, $20k is only about 8.3 years of power. Panels last well over 20 years. Its a good investment.

But if you could double your 20k in 8 years and again in the next 8, you'd have to have spend almost 100k in electrical expenses in that 20 years, is it still a good investment? HS

 

[fordmantpw]

But if you could double your 20k in 8 years and again in the next 8, you'd have to have spend almost 100k in electrical expenses in that 20 years, is it still a good investment? HS

Doubling your money in 8 years means you are getting a return of 9% on your money. There is no SAFE way to do that without risks. What happens when the stock market tanks and you lose 30-40%? Then it looks like a much better investment to go with the known, extremely low risk solar investment.

 

[houstonscott]

Doubling your money in 8 years means you are getting a return of 9% on your money. There is no SAFE way to do that without risks. What happens when the stock market tanks and you lose 30-40%? Then it looks like a much better investment to go with the known, extremely low risk solar investment.

True but if you are more than 12 years old you might remember investments paying almost 9% tax free. Well managed portfolios earn much more. I won't argue that future of business in the USA is bright, but many are going to profit in a collapse. HS

 

[fordmantpw]

True but if you are more than 12 years old you might remember investments paying almost 9% tax free. Well managed portfolios earn much more. I won't argue that future of business in the USA is bright, but many are going to profit in a collapse. HS

I also remember a Snickers costing $0.35 too. And gas at $0.68/gallon. Ahhh, the good ole days. Oh, and don't forget, mortgage interest was 9, 10, 13% too as opposed to the 2.5-3.5% that we are seeing now. My first home loan 15 years ago was 8.5% (for a 15 year). Our new home is coming in at 3.75% (for a 30 year that we plan to pay off in 15).

Speaking of taxes, to double your money, you have to take taxes into account, which means you need to earn more like 12-13% on your money (unless it is in a ROTH, which you can't just plunk 20k in all at once).

Many will profit in a collapse, but many more will lose, big time. I would call solar a SAFE bet. The BEST bet? No, but a safe one.

 

[Redneck in training]

But if you could double your 20k in 8 years and again in the next 8, you'd have to have spend almost 100k in electrical expenses in that 20 years, is it still a good investment? HS

If you save $235/month on energy and invest it Index fund earning 8%/year you will have $100205.45 after 16 years. If inflation pics up investment in PV looks even better.

 

[houstonscott]

I also remember a Snickers costing $0.35 too. And gas at $0.68/gallon. Ahhh, the good ole days. Oh, and don't forget, mortgage interest was 9, 10, 13% too as opposed to the 2.5-3.5% that we are seeing now. My first home loan 15 years ago was 8.5% (for a 15 year). Our new home is coming in at 3.75% (for a 30 year that we plan to pay off in 15). Speaking of taxes, to double your money, you have to take taxes into account, which means you need to earn more like 12-13% on your money (unless it is in a ROTH, which you can't just plunk 20k in all at once). Many will profit in a collapse, but many more will lose, big time. I would call solar a SAFE bet. The BEST bet? No, but a safe one.

I look at solar $$ on my roof more like insurance then an investment, but you are betting against a bright future. HS

 

[houstonscott]

If you save $235/month on energy and invest it Index fund earning 8%/year you will have $100205.45 after 16 years.

Something to consider for sure. HS

 

[fordmantpw]

I look at solar $$ on my roof more like insurance then an investment, but you are betting against a bright future. HS

But it isn't insurance. Insurance is betting against something that MAY happen. We all know that we will have to pay for electricity. We all know that the rates won't stay the same that they are now for the next 20 years.

I see your point about investing the money, but to have a well-rounded portfolio, you need some safe investments to go with the risky ones. Now, if a person only has $20k and they have a choice to invest or do solar, I would recommend investing it as opposed to putting solar panels on their roof. However, most people that install solar aren't spending their last dollar to put the panels on the roof. They are broadening their investment into a safe area as well.

Heck, I'm sure some people are doing it just to feel better about what they are doing for the environment and don't care about the investment at all. Besides, living life isn't about how much money you die with. He who dies with the most does not win.

And don't forget, those that do go solar are effectively helping to keep rates affordable for folks like you who have no desire to use solar.

 

[Redneck in training]

Another thing to consider is the type of hardware you want to install. If you want also a back up when the grid goes down select an inverter that can be islanded, can be paired with battery or at least provides emergency power. Here is an example SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US / 3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US / 7700TL-US
It will keep your fridge, gas furnace and TV powered as long as the sun is shining.

 

[houstonscott]

So you post an article from 2012!!! Please don't ruin this thread. Let people peacefully discus some of the possibilities. Many of us know you are anti anything renewable. Loren

Electric car benefits? Just myths

This ones for Loren, just to bring you up to date. If you think electric cars are the way to go, don't read this. HS

 

[ultrarunner]

Paying 30 cents a kWh has an impact and changes things compared to someone paying 10 cents... just saying.

 

[houstonscott]

But it isn't insurance. Insurance is betting against something that MAY happen. We all know that we will have to pay for electricity. We all know that the rates won't stay the same that they are now for the next 20 years. I see your point about investing the money, but to have a well-rounded portfolio, you need some safe investments to go with the risky ones. Now, if a person only has $20k and they have a choice to invest or do solar, I would recommend investing it as opposed to putting solar panels on their roof. However, most people that install solar aren't spending their last dollar to put the panels on the roof. They are broadening their investment into a safe area as well. Heck, I'm sure some people are doing it just to feel better about what they are doing for the environment and don't care about the investment at all. Besides, living life isn't about how much money you die with. He who dies with the most does not win. And don't forget, those that do go solar are effectively helping to keep rates affordable for folks like you who have no desire to use solar.

I might go solar, I'm between a roof mount or an active tracker. The active tracker is expensive and would never pay a profit. If you generate enough to sell back its bought back at such low rates you are just supplying the electric company with cheap power at your expense. The most you could really hope for is about 6 hours of use. Impacting your bill by 25-40% May not really be that enticing. Most certainly $$ in a PV system sized just right is clearly better $$ than a CD at 1.8%. HS

 

[fordmantpw]

I might go solar, I'm between a roof mount or an active tracker. The active tracker is expensive and would never pay a profit. If you generate enough to sell back its bought back at such low rates you are just supplying the electric company with cheap power at your expense. HS

Selling back never seems to be a worthwhile proposition. For me, I'm on a co-op, and it doesn't buy anything back, no matter how much you are over, so there is no benefit to over-producing. Plus, there is a minimum just for having a meter, so for me, the best place to be is about 80-90% replacement of electricity. Active trackers don't seem to be worth the added expense.

When we built our new home, I had my shed built with solar in mind. 5/12 pitch roof (optimal is 6/12, but that's a bit steep for a metal roof, plus the added cost wouldn't be realized in solar payoffs), roof facing due south, etc. Small things now to help optimize solar in the future.