Synthetic Engine Oil Base Stocks

[Z71]

Still is.

Lubrizol is owned by Berkshire Hathaway Inc, Warren Buffett

 

[Z71]

Then Pennzoil comes along with their "Platinum / Ultra" (Shell) engine oils that claim 'made from natural gas'. But if they were, they would be Group IV, not III. Claim is less deposits than de-graded Mobil 1, so I'm trying that for 1st time in my gasoline engines.

Pennzoils (Shell GTL base oil is a Gr. III imported from Qatar.


GTL - Gas to Liquid

 

[Scooby074]

TRC doesn't seem widely distributed up here. I've heard of their products, and nothing bad that I recall, but I have no direct experience.

Petro Canada's Duron line seems to have a good rep, and is noted for their wide viscosity range, 5w or 0w40 products.

Diesel Engine Oils, DURON-E | Petro-Canada

Rgds, D.

+1 on the Duron oils. Good quality and priced right.

 

[cowpie1]

Thought the main additive supplier in U.S. was Lubrizol? Or did they get bought out by a mega-corp like everybody else?

Infineum is a relatively newer corp. But they have taken the lion's share of the market for lube additive packages. Lubrizol is still a player, but they have lost significant market share to Infineum. When I was getting a bulk oil from a local distributor, I found out all of this mess. My distributor was using Warren as the blender. Warren, the largest blender in the U.S., is getting virtually all of their add packs from Infineum. Warren is the blender for most of the proprietary labeled oils on the market. Infineum is also the primary suppler of add packs to Mobil and Shell.

And on the conventional oil side, Shell's Port Arthur, TX refinery is the largest supplier of Group II and Group II+ conventional base oils for the U.S. When it all gets sorted out, though there are a thousand different labeled oils in the market, it is all coming from a hand full of sources. If you are using a conventional, regardless of brand, most of the time the base oil is coming from Shell. If you are into a Group III synthetic, or faux synthetic as some claim, then it is most likely a Chevron base oil. If you are into the Group IV synthetic game, then the lion's share of Group IV base oil is coming from Mobil. And now Shell has it's mega refinery in Qatar kicking out GTL oils and fuels. Really doesn't bother me. Each brand has it's own particular part of the market, as that is what they do best. Find your niche and focus on that.

 

[Garandman]

Ex. - Subaru boxer 4s tend to beat the heck out of oil, showing up in the Shearing results. Is it a good idea to stretch OCI on one of these Sub engines.... probably not, even with most "Synthetics."
Rgds, D.

My WRX has 81,000 miles. They have a reputation for burning Mobil One, I should try Rotella T6 Synthetic one of these days. Subaru used to recommend 3,750 mi oil changes for turbos but increased it to 7,500 a few years ago. I go 5K and will use half a quart to a quart.

By contrast our Subaru flat six (3.0l) has an oil capacity of 7.5 quarts and uses no oil at all between changes with 171,000 miles on the odo.

 

[Cat_Driver]

So what's the problem, if PAO are the best, just keep buying the best. Just buy 100% Synthetic PAO Formulated Basestock Technology Synthetics. This oil is readily available. I use it in everything after trying them all. Mobil 1 , Redline, Royal Purple, ans a half dozen others.

I go by how the vehicle runs and feels. Don't tell me you can't tell how n engine feels because I had the PAO in my vehicle and it ran quite and smooth. The dealer changed my fluids without my permission and I could tell the difference. I drained what they put in in a week and went back to PAO.

 

[cowpie1]

But PAO is not necessarily "the best". There are some aspects to Group III synthetic that exceeds what PAO can do. But there are some things that PAO will beat out Group III on. Some aspects, it is a dead heat. That is why the best oil "blends" are those with PAO and Group III with a stout additive package. That is why I like Schaeffer oils for my stuff. There are other brands that do a similar thing. Nothing wrong with a PAO, except the higher price, but a good group III will more than do the job for almost everyone except very specialized applications. I seriously doubt anyone outside of a lab setting could tell the difference. This is one area where one does not always get the best bang for their buck. Just warm fuzzies. The marketing folks love it too.

Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3

 

[3930dave]

Good article cp1.

Didn't see obvious links to Part 1 or 2. Searching came up with:

The Evolution of Base Oil Technology Industry Focus

and

The Advent of Modern Hydroprocessing - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 2

Both are good reads.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

My WRX has 81,000 miles. They have a reputation for burning Mobil One, I should try Rotella T6 Synthetic one of these days. Subaru used to recommend 3,750 mi oil changes for turbos but increased it to 7,500 a few years ago. I go 5K and will use half a quart to a quart.

By contrast our Subaru flat six (3.0l) has an oil capacity of 7.5 quarts and uses no oil at all between changes with 171,000 miles on the odo.

A quart in 5k isn't too bad - as street engines go, those are relatively high output. One of the things I like about T6 is that it is versatile (C*/S* rated) - nice if you only want to stock one oil, or in commercial or ag operation it helps make it Operator-proof (ie. hired help sticking gas rated motor oil in a diesel.....).

That, and T6 is easy to find. I've also used plenty of Mobil 1 in years past.

Rgds, D.

 

[sixdogs]

I never used T6 but I'm beginning to think I should take a look at it? Up until now I've been using Deere 0W40 synthetic in 5 gallon buckets to keep the cost down. It's getting a little pricey now so I'm looking for alternatives. Sorry I'm dumb on this but is T6 pretty widely used in farm tractors? h

 

[3930dave]

I never used T6 but I'm beginning to think I should take a look at it? Up until now I've been using Deere 0W40 synthetic in 5 gallon buckets to keep the cost down. It's getting a little pricey now so I'm looking for alternatives. Sorry I'm dumb on this but is T6 pretty widely used in farm tractors? h

I've used it in mine, and also my 7.3. From the generator side of things, I've come across a few guys who use T6 in everything. Up here we have a 0W40 T6 that is now available as well as the 5W version.

A couple of times a year, Shell will do a mail-in rebate on jugs, $5 or so each. If you are going through pails quickly, check with Schaeffer - respected products, and free delivery (USA) if you are buying enough.

T6 is easy to get off the shelf - Wally World.

Rgds, D.

 

[DK35vince]

I never used T6 but I'm beginning to think I should take a look at it? Up until now I've been using Deere 0W40 synthetic in 5 gallon buckets to keep the cost down. It's getting a little pricey now so I'm looking for alternatives. Sorry I'm dumb on this but is T6 pretty widely used in farm tractors? h

I have been running the Rotella T-6 5w-40 synthetic in my tractor since new (13-14 years now).
I also use the T-6 in most everything else. Motorcycle, Atv, zero turn mower, push mower, pressure washer, water pump engine, Etc.

 

[mkreitler]

The best to use is AMSOIL or SCHAEFFER'S ! With SCHAEFFER'S you can get SPECIALIZED LUBRICANTS made to whatever specs. you wish if the need be. After all is's all about what you feel comfortable using and how much your machine's worth to you. Also remember any machine or vehicle is only as good as it is maintained.

 

[Garandman]

The best to use is AMSOIL or .

If it wasn't for the VERTICAL MARKETING distribution, I'd look at AMSOIL. But almost everyone who recommends it is selling it.....

 

[MikePA]

I recommend it and I'm not selling it.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The reality is if you do a half way decent job on Maintiance a machine will last a very long time.

I was doing 100 oil changes a year on about 75 pieces of equipment for the last 20 years. This year I'm upto 100 pieces of equipment band about 125 oil changes. I buy what's on sale. Both Filters and Oil. Many times house brands as long as it's in spec or close to it, ie 5W30 in place of 10W30.

In all these oil changes one thing holds true, I've never had a single engine failure or oil related issue.

Chris

 

[Garandman]

We do oil analysis periodically on our vehicles. I asked the technician what the benefit of a 3,000 mile oil change is.

"You create very high quality waste oil." :laughing:

 

[RalphVa]

Interesting thread that I hadn't seen before. I worked as a process engineer in lube oil industry for Exxon and its ER&E licencees for 31 years. Saw from the research that our Sarnia research affiliate did that Mobil 1 was the best. Switched to Mobil 1 in everything I owned a couple years after retiring after the merger. Didn't feel like a traitor then.

Even switched our nearly 25 year old 240D to Mobil 1 (and even my old Gravely tractor at the time). Doubled oil change interval to 6k miles and didn't feel bad about using a non diesel (couldn't find a diesel rated Mobil 1 locally) rated because this change interval isn't horribly long to worry about too much carbon in the oil and not be solubilized by a non diesel oil. This boosted the mileage from 29 mpg up to 30-31.

Now own and have had a Jetta TDI for 5 years (finally gave up on Benz bringing over their stick shift C class diesel). Pisses me off that I cannot get a Mobil 1 (the ESP one) locally to use in it. Only oil for it locally is the Castrol that I buy from the VW dealer. Wonder where Castrol gets it. They used to buy virtually all their US oil from Exxon. It's a Castrol 507 spec rated oil, probably some hydrotreated stuff they get from their owner in Europe but bet they buy a hydro oil from someone here. Maybe the hydrotreated wax that Baytown make in oil?

Switched my Tacoma to 0w20 Mobil 1 and have gotten a pretty good increase in fuel economy. Figure the 0w20 is probably hardly any different vis in the really hot areas of the engine that would matter due to flatter vis curve than the 5w30 they spec. Pumping losses are quite a bit lower using the 0w20 than the 5w30, apparently. I only change oil in it about every 3 years, as I hardly drive it. Wife and I hate the beast. We only drive it when we HAVE to drive another vehicle or really need a truck.

I use T6 in my 1025 JD while it's still under warrnty and likely will continue to use T6 in it or will buy some of the Castrol stuff same as what I use in the TDI. I used regular Mobil 1 0w30 in my 4010 when I had it, as I changed every year, generally only 60 hours or so on the engine, not much to accumulate hardly any carbon.

Using a 0w30 Mobil 1 in my VW Cabrio that I used to have reduced hydraulic valve lifter pounding on startup. It apparently has a hydraulic lifter drain down problem. The 0w30 stuff would just get pumped into the lifters quicker, to refill them. Did nothing for mileage. Stayed right at 31 mpg.

Ralph

 

[nova3930]

Then Pennzoil comes along with their "Platinum / Ultra" (Shell) engine oils that claim 'made from natural gas'. But if they were, they would be Group IV, not III. Claim is less deposits than de-graded Mobil 1, so I'm trying that for 1st time in my gasoline engines.

Group IV is a specific chemical definition based on the feed stock for the sythesis. Just because they're sythesizing petroleum from NG doesn't necessarily mean that it will be a Group IV oil. I this case they're just making an extremely pure version of a Group III oil....

And the one thing that gets rarely discussed in all these synthetic oil discussions, is that the base stock is one thing, but the additive package of the oil can make or break any good base stock. The add pack can make up to 25% of a typical bottled oil or lube. A lousy add pack can make the best synthetic perform worse than a great petroleum base stock with a killer add pack.

Yep. People get hung up in base stock are missing the forest for the trees. The goal of any oil is to provide lubrication, wear protection and neutralization and/or isolation of contaminants. To get those you shoot for certain performance parameters, TBN, Viscosity, NOACK, etc etc. Whether you hit those targets via base stock, additives or some combination is not really relevant as long as it hits the targets.

And as always those performance requirements are dictated by useage spectrum. OCI, duty severity, etc etc are play into exactly what requirements you need.

Pennzoils (Shell GTL base oil is a Gr. III imported from Qatar.


GTL - Gas to Liquid

Yeah, my understanding is that due to source it's just an extremely pure GIII oil. I use the Ultra in our Ecoboost cars because it's been shown to have very good NOACK volatility numbers, something pretty important in the harshe environment of a turbocharger. The lighter hydrocarbons cooking off and thickening the oil at high temperature is a bad thing for a turbo....

 

[3930dave]

Yep. People get hung up in base stock are missing the forest for the trees. The goal of any oil is to provide lubrication, wear protection and neutralization and/or isolation of contaminants. To get those you shoot for certain performance parameters, TBN, Viscosity, NOACK, etc etc. Whether you hit those targets via base stock, additives or some combination is not really relevant as long as it hits the targets.

Bingo.

I've spent plenty of time reading UOA reports on BITOG, because:

1) It's way better than what's on TV....

2) You can see fairly quickly (my def'n - a few evenings of reading) that as long as you are using just about any correctly spec'd name brand oil, at factory OCI, they perform pretty well.

3) You can start to see some nuances of how different oils perform, and adjust what you are using to suit your Care Abouts, and vehicle-use specifics. Somebody doing a lot of highway driving in a lightly loaded vehicle across Northern Canada will have different needs/priorities vs. a guy constantly pulling an overloaded trailer in Dallas or Phoenix traffic.

4) Another good-to-read section on Bob is the Oil Guy is dedicated to Unused (Virgin) Oil Analysis. Once you find an addtive pack you like in an oil, you can watch for any tweaks/changes in that section.

Agreed..... turbos are a tough application, that needs a high performance oil.

Rgds, D.