Reminder - Cost of Ownership of Gas vs Diesel

[JimRB]

Does a truck that is going to tow run 87 octane or does it need to run mid-grade or high test to really work? Where I live mid-grade and diesel are the same price. My little Toyota with a knock sensor did not like to tow unless it had 92 octane.

My 2003 Jetta diesel has had zero expenses different from a gas model until I had to replace a $1,100 fuel distributor. 410,000 miles when I did that swap. I wonder what else will mess up the next 400,000 miles. I get 47-50 mpg. With a gas engine I would have gotten at most 35 mpg. If one were considering apples to apples in the 2003 VW the 1.8T cost the same as the 1.9 TDI. The 2.0 was about $2,000 less. Back in 2003 diesel was less expensive than gas.

12 mpg gas and 18 mpg diesel. Where I live today $2.80 per gallon low test gas, $3.39 per gallon diesel. Drive 800 miles a week and the gas model uses $186 in fuel. Diesel uses $150. Only $36 savings times 52 weeks. Only $1872 a year in savings with the diesel. Factor in a few oil changes which could be $60 each more expensive for a diesel so you only save $1692 per year with diesel. Of course I go back to the question of can you run low test and actually pull a 6,000 pound trailer with a lot of air drag on low test? I have no idea. Now if you are paying a $10,000 premium for diesel engine then you will have a hard time justifying. Neighbor got a 1 ton dually Chevy 4 door, 4wd, long wheelbase work truck with a diesel for less than $50,000. I can't recall what the price was but it was a lot less than the pimped out 3/4 ton diesels you see at ag shows. If you run a vehicle with a diesel might save $18,000 in fuel but you paid a $9-11,000 premium. Of course it also assumes that you drive a fair bit a year. If you only drive 10,000 miles a year a diesel might be a horrible purchase.

So that bit of math begs the question of why not drive a 30 mpg car if your truck is not going to work? I hate driving my Dodge diesel that sucks fuel at 16-20 mpg depending on if I tow a trailer, haul hay or make it work somehow or not versus the VW which gets 46-50+ mpg.

If the injectors in my Dodge do not mess up (which could happen in a Hemi I guess) what costs more to maintain for a diesel? One battery versus two is a $160 expense every 7-10 years. Spark plug change every 100,000 miles on a gas engine. My Jetta diesel maintenance seems to not be any more than a gas model.

 

[Wolfy]

I run a Buick for that reason, but after registration and insurance, not sure if I save that much money.

 

[MossRoad]

DP, I got on the internet and looked up fuel price in your area of Indiana. I got 2.69 for regular gas, 3.42 for diesel. That's not $1.07, that's more like $0.73. In my area it more like $0.64 today.

Here is the link I used to come up with those prices. Indiana Gas Prices - Find Cheap Gas Prices in Indiana, IN

Up here in Northern Indiana, in South Bend, regular gas is between $2.78 and $3.00 while diesel is between $3.55 and $3.99. So, between $0.77 to $1.21 higher for diesel.

 

[dodge man]

DP, I ran the numbers, if the gas truck gets 12 mpg and the diesel gets 18 mpg, it's fuel cost is less. For 1000 miles and using the fuel prices I found in your area $2.69 for gas, $3.41 for diesel, the diesel uses $190 and the gas truck uses $224 in fuel. In a lot of areas the difference would be greater, diesel and gas are a little closer in price in my area

 

[MossRoad]

DP, I ran the numbers, if the gas truck gets 12 mpg and the diesel gets 18 mpg, it's fuel cost is less. For 1000 miles and using the fuel prices I found in your area $2.69 for gas, $3.41 for diesel, the diesel uses $190 and the gas truck uses $224 in fuel. In a lot of areas the difference would be greater, diesel and gas are a little closer in price in my area

With the numbers I posted above for today's prices here and the 12mpg and 18mpg that are being bantered about, the diesel gets 33% better mileage. But diesel fuel costs between 22% and 30% more (again, based on where I am located at today's posted prices). Thats a fuel cost savings of at best about 11% and at worst, only about 3%. Factor in the $6000 dollar option and you have to drive many, many miles to justify the purchase based on fuel savings alone.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I "topped off" with gasoline this morning in Missouri @ $2.619

Same place was selling #2 diesel @ $3.429

I know you probably will not believe me but for some reason in my area they always report "EXEMPT" prices on diesel. I use the Gas Buddy App and when I get to the station it's always $.35 more per gallon or so.

I posted a pic just for this very reason because Gas Buddy was right on for 87 but way off for diesel.

Chris

 

[MossRoad]

With the numbers I posted above for today's prices here and the 12mpg and 18mpg that are being bantered about, the diesel gets 33% better mileage. But diesel fuel costs between 22% and 30% more (again, based on where I am located at today's posted prices). Thats a fuel cost savings of at best about 11% and at worst, only about 3%. Factor in the $6000 dollar option and you have to drive many, many miles to justify the purchase based on fuel savings alone.

You're going to use 8333 gallons of gas to drive 100,000 miles at 12mpg.
You're going to use 5555 gallons of diesel to drive 100,000 miles at 18mpg.
You'll spend $23,165.00 on gas and $19,720 on diesel at $2.67 and $3.55 respectively
and
You'll spend $24,999.00 on gas and $22,164 on diesel at $3.00 and $3.99 respectively.
That's a difference of between $3445 and $2835.
You'd have to drive at least 200,000 miles just to pay for the cost of the diesel engine option.

 

[Diamondpilot]

DP, I ran the numbers, if the gas truck gets 12 mpg and the diesel gets 18 mpg, it's fuel cost is less. For 1000 miles and using the fuel prices I found in your area $2.69 for gas, $3.41 for diesel, the diesel uses $190 and the gas truck uses $224 in fuel. In a lot of areas the difference would be greater, diesel and gas are a little closer in price in my area

Buy me on road diesel at that price 15 miles from my house and I will pay you the difference. I run both gas and diesel equipment so I'm not a diesel hater. Today the best I could do was the price I quoted.

Diesel made sense for me in 98 when I got my first one. Thing started to sway in the mid 2000's when I bought my last one. Back then the gas jobs were not what they are today and diesel fuel was cheaper than gas.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

With the numbers I posted above for today's prices here and the 12mpg and 18mpg that are being bantered about, the diesel gets 33% better mileage. But diesel fuel costs between 22% and 30% more (again, based on where I am located at today's posted prices). Thats a fuel cost savings of at best about 11% and at worst, only about 3%. Factor in the $6000 dollar option and you have to drive many, many miles to justify the purchase based on fuel savings alone.

$6000 option? I wish. It's double that on a new truck.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

In my area the price difference was about $0.53 per gallon. DP, I don't doubt your numbers.

The main point I'm trying to make is people keep throwing around numbers to prove a point, they throw out opinions, but the truth is they don't have a clue what they are talking about. They haven't kept exact records and run the numbers.

DP you said you kept track of every dime you have put in your vehicles. You have hundreds of thousands of miles on these vehicles. Let's ignore the initial cost and the resale value. Just maintance and fuel cost. What is the cost per mile of these. My guess is you can't or won't crunch the numbers, it's a lot of work. I admit I don't have the numbers.

There is a guy on the Cummins forum that has close to 1,000,000 miles on his truck. He is a hot shotter. He has kept track of every expense on his truck, every drop of fuel. He got over 900,000 miles out of his original engine without a rebuild. He averaged well over 200,000 miles on injectors. This guy knows exactly how much his truck has cost per mile.

 

[MossRoad]

$6000 option? I wish. It's double that on a new truck.

Chris

YIKES!!!

I went through this excersice back in the 80's when gas prices spiked. The savings from fuel alone just wasn't there.

 

[Diamondpilot]

In my area the price difference was about $0.53 per gallon. DP, I don't doubt your numbers.

The main point I'm trying to make is people keep throwing around numbers to prove a point, they throw out opinions, but the truth is they don't have a clue what they are talking about. They haven't kept exact records and run the numbers.

DP you said you kept track of every dime you have put in your vehicles. You have hundreds of thousands of miles on these vehicles. Let's ignore the initial cost and the resale value. Just maintance and fuel cost. What is the cost per mile of these. My guess is you can't or won't crunch the numbers, it's a lot of work. I admit I don't have the numbers.

There is a guy on the Cummins forum that has close to 1,000,000 miles on his truck. He is a hot shotter. He has kept track of every expense on his truck, every drop of fuel. He got over 900,000 miles out of his original engine without a rebuild. He averaged well over 200,000 miles on injectors. This guy knows exactly how much his truck has cost per mile.

I actually posted the numbers just a few weeks ago on my current two trucks. It's in the 3/4 vs 1/2 ton thread. I bumped it so you can see.

My F350 is $.295 per mile. This is just fuel, oil, and last set of tires.

My F150 is $.197 per mile. Again, fuel oil and tires.

Brakes, air filters, ect are a wash actually and both have been trouble free for 120,000 and 45,000 miles respectively.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

Sorry, not a fair comparison. One is a 1 ton the other is a 1/2 ton. A better comparison would be your 1/2 ton Eco boost to a Ram Ecodiesel.

 

[Capricious]

I "topped off" with gasoline this morning in Missouri @ $2.619

Same place was selling #2 diesel @ $3.429

"Topped-off' again this morning, same place.

$2.569 for gasoline, still $3.429 for #2

Since this is the end of "driving season" and the beginning of "heating season," this time of year usually has the biggest disparity between the two around these parts.

The biggest difference I have seen is an even dollar, and one time #2 was about 5 cents cheaper than gasoline, but those were both short-term events.

I have said it before, but if I needed to tow heavy loads all the time I would probably go diesel, but for just occasional towing it's gasoline, and if I don't need the capacity of the truck (such as for daily commuting) then the Toyota Corolla gets the miles.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Sorry, not a fair comparison. One is a 1 ton the other is a 1/2 ton. A better comparison would be your 1/2 ton Eco boost to a Ram Ecodiesel.

Boy, can't make you happy! I called your bluff on you calling me out to post numbers, which I had done a few weeks ago, and when the results didn't go your way you change your story or rules of the game.

Not a far comparison there either. The Fiat Ram would get spanked when it came to work or hauling more than 4 people at a time.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

Your right you can't make me happy.

I just put tires on my wife's car, spent $1000. I drove it one mile, the cost is then $1000 per mile. Gas vehicles are expensive aren't they. Yes you posted numbers on cost per mile but based on what?

You compare your one ton to your half ton gasser, I say that isn't fair, compare it to a half ton diesel. You then go on to tell me how much more work you truck can do compared to an Ecodiesel. Should we compare a Priusus to an 18 wheeler?

A university did a study. I read it, they seem to do a good job. I'm sure there are holes on it but there is in any study. I would consider Michigan to be a respected school. Then people start throwing around ideas and numbers based on what?

I believe you have said in the past you don't break your diesel out to tow anything less than 10,000 pounds. You then wonder why I don't buy into your comparison between it and your 1/2 ton.

 

[wawajake]

Some people have their minds made up and their biases will always overwhelm........ Dodge man I applaud your attempt to bring reasoning into the debate, but sometimes a "pilot" is actually a "pylon" .

 

[dodge man]

I rarely get into these arguments, it's like beating your head against the wall.

I'm a land surveyor but my degree is in Civil Engineering. When we design a bridge, we don't say "steel beams rule, concrete beams drool". We sit down and look at the cost difference, short and long term maintance, ease of construction etc. We don't sit around and argue which kind of beam is better.

 

[wawajake]

Although a different career, I have been a Senior Buyer for many years now and we go out of our way to avoid evaluator bias when deciding best value for our money. Unfortunately on TBN bias rules.

 

[zing]

Saudi Arabia just dropped a barrel of crude's value to the lowest price since 2007. Gas and diesel prices are currently on a roller coaster, and not necessarily riding the same peaks and valleys at the same moment in time. Using today's gas vs diesel price to calculate long term cost of ownership is probably not appropriate since it is not a realistic representation of the comparative cost in the long run.