Still have the electrical short issue

[woodlandfarms]

Well, the hits just keep coming.

Last week my engine heat guage redlined. Realizing the engine was pretty cool to the touch, I looked under the hood. The tab to my oil temp sensor had broken off and grounded.

Well, taped it up, and moved forward. Pulled all my grounds cleaned them. Called Terry, he has a thermostat set aside. Now I go out and all week it is rainy and cool, so I grade the road, move some dirt. Engine gets warm. No fuse pops.

Well, today, when I think I have fixed it all, the fuse pops, and keeps popping every 5 minutes. Symptoms are that the engine needs to be warmed up. Also it appears being hot outside helps the situation as the engine was warm when plowing the mile long road but it didn't pop.

Will call Terry tomorrow again. He said something about a fuel sending device causing similar situation.

Frustrated. My grass is over my friggin head but I don't want to get caught in a ravine with a non op tractor.

 

[ponytug]

Carl,

I know you just cleaned the grounds, but don't forget to check for continuity. I had to replace a couple of wires/terminations on my PT because of fatigue, resulting in intermittent functioning. Your tab breaking off is a sign to me that you may have multiple wire terminations that are end of life. The fact that cool/rain helps reinforces that opinion. Specifically, I would be wiggling all of the crimped on wire terminations on the engine and starter, looking for any termination that feels flexible or weak. Don't forget the fan wiring. I would also double check the cable and wire loom from the engine to the main control box and from there toward the front, looking for any place that the outside has wear on it from bouncing around in the tub.

You mentioned your temperature gauge redlining. Have you ever noticed other gauges bouncing around? (Sign of a poor ground or bad battery cable.)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you don't find anything, I would consider running an extra ground from the engine to the tub and one from the front dash to the same point on the tub. It can't hurt, and might help.

Good luck.

All the best,

Peter

 

[woodlandfarms]

All great advice. Not a broken record. I think it is a ground issue and your words encourage me to go back over. I am replacing my PTO Activator per Terry instructions but will continue to dig into the other circuits. Such a PITA bummer. Really the grass on my property is like 7 feet high. I did not think it was possible. Add to it the pollen and it is a living **** for me.

 

[BobRip]

Carl,

I know you just cleaned the grounds, but don't forget to check for continuity. I had to replace a couple of wires/terminations on my PT because of fatigue, resulting in intermittent functioning. Your tab breaking off is a sign to me that you may have multiple wire terminations that are end of life. The fact that cool/rain helps reinforces that opinion. Specifically, I would be wiggling all of the crimped on wire terminations on the engine and starter, looking for any termination that feels flexible or weak. Don't forget the fan wiring. I would also double check the cable and wire loom from the engine to the main control box and from there toward the front, looking for any place that the outside has wear on it from bouncing around in the tub.

You mentioned your temperature gauge redlining. Have you ever noticed other gauges bouncing around? (Sign of a poor ground or bad battery cable.)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you don't find anything, I would consider running an extra ground from the engine to the tub and one from the front dash to the same point on the tub. It can't hurt, and might help.

Good luck.

All the best,

Peter

A blow fuse is caused by high current. High current is caused by something connecting to something else that it should not. In other words an unintended connection. Everything you are talking about is a connection disconnecting. How does this cause a high current and then a blown fuse.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

So, talked to Terry all morning. He said I was going about it wrong, and felt that the issue was either fan or one of the magnetic coils. Fan might be an issue, probably not as it is fused. Coils a good chance, there are only 3 running when mowing which is draft control, PTO and Seat.

So rightly so he says take them off line one by one when hot and see what that gets you. Surprise, Draft Control on = blown breaker. Mowed all afternoon in float without an issue.

Again, this is no guarantee but it seems the coil is either shorting, or something when it gets hot.

So out it is going. I will order a new one tomorrow. Will also check continuity on the wiring to make sure.

 

[ponytug]

Great! Congratulations on finding the problem and taking on the attacking grass.

Most linear solenoids don't have a terribly long life, compared to helical solenoids. When they fail, they usually short internally. (Some jam.) I would certainly suspect the solenoid over wiring, especially given the location of the draft control, at least on my PT. When replacing it, solenoids do come in a number of different grades, and you can choose how much heat and water they rated for, but upgrading may not be worth the price.

To Bob's question, an intermittent ground can cause surge currents that are large enough to blow fuses/pop breakers. Think of it as pent up demand that is all released when the ground makes contact. Personally, I tend to start with grounds because it is often common to a group of circuits, and may explain global failures.

FWIW: Don't you think that you would notice a blown or flakey PTO/seat solenoid? Then again, I just noticed my porch light is out...I'm not sure how long it has been out, but now that I think of it, I was vaguely aware that it wasn't coming on as often...

Three cheers for Terry.

All the best,

Peter

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

So, talked to Terry all morning. He said I was going about it wrong, and felt that the issue was either fan or one of the magnetic coils. Fan might be an issue, probably not as it is fused. Coils a good chance, there are only 3 running when mowing which is draft control, PTO and Seat.

So rightly so he says take them off line one by one when hot and see what that gets you. Surprise, Draft Control on = blown breaker. Mowed all afternoon in float without an issue.

Again, this is no guarantee but it seems the coil is either shorting, or something when it gets hot.

So out it is going. I will order a new one tomorrow. Will also check continuity on the wiring to make sure.

 

[cqaigy2]

I sure hope your journey to a functional PT is at it's end, for now anyway.

Nice explanation on the solenoids and grounding issues Peter.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I have had coils in the past that would work, but pull too much voltage so I was looking hard at both seat and PTO. But you are right, draft is pretty subtle and working / not working would be harder to notice.

Now the ugliness. The new Oil Temp Sensor is $250. The new Coil is $250. Obseneties. Terry has a slightly used Oil Temp he is sending me for $50. Not that I had to be that cheap but that sensor looks like a car part. Doubt it is exclusive to Deutz.

 

[ponytug]

Carl,
$250/ea seems excessive to me for both parts. I would do some shopping around.
The oil sender should not be that expensive. You may need to figure out the voltage/resistance range on it. It should be a $15-20 part. Solenoids are a little more complicated due to the variety of options (voltage, force, current, insulation, temperature, environmental resistance...) Price ranges for a variety of reasons. Take the one you have down to a local supplier and try to match it up. You should be able to match the main numbers and the manufacturer to a specific set of features from which you can try to find substitutes. The extra numbers are either a manufacturing code, or a code specific to the electrical leads/terminals on the solenoid.

All the best,

Peter

 

[BobRip]

Great! Congratulations on finding the problem and taking on the attacking grass.

Most linear solenoids don't have a terribly long life, compared to helical solenoids. When they fail, they usually short internally. (Some jam.) I would certainly suspect the solenoid over wiring, especially given the location of the draft control, at least on my PT. When replacing it, solenoids do come in a number of different grades, and you can choose how much heat and water they rated for, but upgrading may not be worth the price.

To Bob's question, an intermittent ground can cause surge currents that are large enough to blow fuses/pop breakers. Think of it as pent up demand that is all released when the ground makes contact. Personally, I tend to start with grounds because it is often common to a group of circuits, and may explain global failures.

FWIW: Don't you think that you would notice a blown or flakey PTO/seat solenoid? Then again, I just noticed my porch light is out...I'm not sure how long it has been out, but now that I think of it, I was vaguely aware that it wasn't coming on as often...

Three cheers for Terry.

All the best,

Peter

Peter thanks for addressing my comment. I have seen what you are talking about with AC solenoid a, but don't see how it applies to DC solenoids. Unless the DC solenoid has a resistor that kicks in after the solenoid is engage, I can't see how this happens. DC solenoids putt lower current initially due to the inductance and the current then rises.

Anyway, the shorting after getting hot seems like a likely and reasonable failure and I am very glad the problem has been found. Intermittent problems are the worst problems and will drive you crazy.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Every cloud has a silver lining. In all the troubles I was trying to figure out how to unload the 1850 and go buy a brand new one. Getting it by the wife. It was an entertaining few weeks.

 

[SpringHollow]

That problem is easy - ship it to me!!! I would love to get one and modify the **** out of it.

Ken

 

[woodlandfarms]

Well, just put the meter on it (Cold) and I am at 7.2 ohms. Will try and mow today and see what the reading is.

 

[J_J]

How can you have an electrical short and not know it?

It is either shorted with voltage applied, and in that case, something would burn/heat up.

A short with no voltage will show continuity or a beep if you are using a beeper, or a light if using a battery and probe.

An OHM meter should find a short or open if you know which wire and what the condition should be.

I use a tracker that attaches to a wire and I can move the sensor along the wire and trace it.

 

[Marks481]

How can you have an electrical short and not know it?

I had an issue with a corroded wire going from my ignition switch to my starter in my car. Worked fine when the engine was cold, but when the engine heated up, the wire resistance would go up, and than the starter wouldn't turn. Difficult to diagnose because it was an intermittent fault, and usually only showed up when at the end of a long drive, when I was a long way from home, and it wasn't convenient to troubleshoot.

Sounds like woodland farms has an intermittent fault shorting out his draft control solenoid. So it isn't shorted all the time, making it hard to find.

Woodland: I would recommend you just bite the bullet, and just run a new wire from your draft control solenoid from the control switch. I bet the fault is occurring somewhere in the tunnel, and you won't find it until you pull out the old wire and find the insulation scraped off. I assume the draft control switch is wired to be powered off your ignition switch, so it doesn't have a wire going directly from the battery through the tunnel to the switch.

Yeah, it is a pain fishing through the tunnel but dollars-to-donuts says that is where the problem is.

Since your solenoid is reading good (at 7.2 ohms), that is likely not the problem area (still could be a temperature effect thing going on, but unlikely).

 

[SpringHollow]

Short is relative - it can be a high resistance short that pulls enough amps so that things do not work but not so much that it blows a breaker or burns up wire.

Ken

 

[J_J]

Intermittant is one thing and only works sometimes, but a short is a short. A short is an unwanted situation. Continuity is a good thing unless it is unwanted situation.

Either you have continuity or you don't.

Even if you have a high resistance, you still have continuity, and things might heat up. If that short or high resistance is in the tunnel with some hyd fluid, it just might start a fire. Do you have a fire extinguisher handy?

Woodlandfarms has mentioned several things. If you are talking about solenoids, some are rated for continuous operation and others intermittent operation. External heat can also add to the temp of the energized coil.

Are they on the same fuse?

 

[ponytug]

Dear Bob,

You are the electrical engineer in the room; I have to admit I was thinking of the breaker pop as a function of an in-rush current. I agree with you about inductance lowering the current. So, I don't know what to say other than to say observationally poor grounds have popped fuses and breakers for me. I'm trying to think if any of my problem circuits had active loads on them (e.g. an alternator) that could have pushed the voltage/current profiles. It isn't coming to me at the moment.

All the best,

Peter

Peter thanks for addressing my comment. I have seen what you are talking about with AC solenoid a, but don't see how it applies to DC solenoids. Unless the DC solenoid has a resistor that kicks in after the solenoid is engage, I can't see how this happens. DC solenoids putt lower current initially due to the inductance and the current then rises.

Anyway, the shorting after getting hot seems like a likely and reasonable failure and I am very glad the problem has been found. Intermittent problems are the worst problems and will drive you crazy.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So just to review my situation

It seems that the break only happens when the engine is hot, and when I am mowing. I have not had a break when just doing road grading (which does not activate PTO or Draft).

When Draft is off, I did not pop a breaker (One 3 hour mowing session).

Have not run with Draft on and PTO off yet.

I don't think it is a wire issue. I have checked for grounding in the wire. (Ohm Meter Red wire on positive side of wire from switch, ohm meter black lead on ground)

The coil, cold reads 7.2 ohms as per a note here that is what its load should be.

I did remove the coil, it had lots of rust between the actuator and itself. I also cleaned all the connectons, with the positive feed side connector corroded.

As the parts are a few days away, I will continue to test.

 

[J_J]

12v and 7.2 ohms = 1.666 amps, so what size is the fuse.

Watts - volts - amps - ohms conversion calculator

Measure the coil hot of put a heat gun on it and see what happens. Then spray it down with freon and see what happens.

If you have wires in the tunnel, you have no idea of the condition of the wire. Especially if someone has dragged hoses through the tunnel.

An intermittent/momentary short will blow a fuse.