Are all sub compacts essentially equal?

[Cherokee140]

Thanks, my uncle was the costume designer for that movie.

That is 10 degrees past cool. I imagine he has some stories.

 

[Cherokee140]

It's not bigger than the 1 series...not by any amount that matters.

On the other hand, the 1 series is 7" longer than the BX. So 7" longer is okay, but 8" longer isn't?

You have to draw the line somewhere.....

one question however:

Are you ever wrong?

Or should I say do you ever admit you are wrong?

 

[Cherokee140]

Tractors and trucks are different, and you know it.

So now it's tires size that defines the machine, not the actual length, height, and weight? :confused2:

LS, who makes the Boomer 25, tends to put one size larger tires on all their machines...that doesn't make my R4047H a Utility machine.

Further, the "rule" about tire size is nothing more than your opinion.

Yes, the 3pt is included in the length of the Boomer 25.

Honestly, it just sounds like the Kubota guys being defensive about the BX series more than anything else. Big deal, they're on the small side of the SCUT group. Some will be the same, some will be bigger, but that doesn't make a 1,500-1,700lb machine a CUT.

This is getting fun now....is it JUST the tire size or is there more to it that puts the machine in a specific class. How do we figure in those Japanese 1/2 ton trucks....I have had some of those, and they don't quite equal a chevy 15 or ford 150.....but they are still called half ton. Muddy waters indeed.

 

[GManBart]

You have to draw the line somewhere.....

So let me get this straight. There are some machines that are around 95" long, and they're SCUTs. There's one or two that are 102" long, and they're still SCUTs, for some arbitrary reason. Then there are a couple of machines that are 103". You guys are suggesting the line between SCUT and CUT should be after the 102" machines, and not after the 95" machines? That's just silly.

If you read my comments in this thread, you could answer your other question.

 

[Cherokee140]

So let me get this straight. There are some machines that are around 95" long, and they're SCUTs. There's one or two that are 102" long, and they're still SCUTs, for some arbitrary reason. Then there are a couple of machines that are 103". You guys are suggesting the line between SCUT and CUT should be after the 102" machines, and not after the 95" machines? That's just silly.

If you read my comments in this thread, you could answer your other question.

Is that the only thing that defines this type of machine? No. What I am saying is over all....you have to look at the total package not just this spec and that spec. Over all what I am saying is during my lunch break a few weeks ago the 25 and 30 felt bigger then the BX I have at home, and from memory bigger then the 1 series. I can't really comment on the max as it was not on my radar for long.

Overall when my fanny was in the seat it the new Holland machines FELT larger.

Re-read that last bit again....FELT... this is something that the specs will not and will never tell you.....how the machine feels to you. I have been on the BX for over 70 hours now. I have a halfway good idea on how it feels....and I am use to it now. I know when I sat on the new Holland they felt larger, Like you are higher, the wheels looked bigger....It felt more heavy. All how the machine FEELS not the specs.

 

[GManBart]

Is that the only thing that defines this type of machine? No. What I am saying is over all....you have to look at the total package not just this spec and that spec. Over all what I am saying is during my lunch break a few weeks ago the 25 and 30 felt bigger then the BX I have at home, and from memory bigger then the 1 series. I can't really comment on the max as it was not on my radar for long.

Overall when my fanny was in the seat it the new Holland machines FELT larger.

Re-read that last bit again....FELT... this is something that the specs will not and will never tell you.....how the machine feels to you. I have been on the BX for over 70 hours now. I have a halfway good idea on how it feels....and I am use to it now. I know when I sat on the new Holland they felt larger, Like you are higher, the wheels looked bigger....It felt more heavy. All how the machine FEELS not the specs.

The Boomer 25 is larger than your BX. The Boomer 25 isn't larger (significantly) than the 1 series. The 1 series is also larger than your BX.

The 1 series and the Boomer 25 are essentially the same size.

You're talking about feelings, spread out over time, and that's about as unscientific as it gets. If you lined up the BX, a 1 series, and a Boomer 25 next to one another, then that "feeling" might have some kind of relevance.

As it is, saying "it feels bigger" is a pretty poor way to define what class of machine something should be in....especially when some of the factual data contradicts your feelings/memory.

 

[Cherokee140]

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

That is 10 degrees past cool. I imagine he has some stories.

Sadly, Andre has passed on but we have a box of photos. My uncle also did the original Planet of the Apes movies and visiting his house as a kid was a trip.

 

[Cherokee140]

So sorry for bringing up sad.

But you are a lucky guy to have known a guy like that.

 

[Pixguy]

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

It's obvious you never had one cuz that's almost the last thing you do, agree with her.

 

[Gittyup]

Some folks can't have a discussion without being rude and are best just added to the ignore list.

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

 

[GManBart]

I quit....I never had one, but talking to you is like talking to an ex wife. From now on I will just say yes dear.

Whatever you say.

Two posts ago it was fun, but now you're upset?

You looked at a 1 series months ago, bought a BX, and then looked at a Boomer 25 last week, and said it felt larger than the 1 series.

The facts are the 1 series and Boomer 25 are within an inch of being the same size, but we should all go off your months old memory of a "feeling" about something you didn't see in any reasonable proximity to the other machine? Yeah, that makes complete sense.

Memories and feelings don't change what the tape measure proves.

 

[Cherokee140]

Not upset, just talking to a brick wall.

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

 

[murphy1244]

Not upset, just talking to a brick wall.

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

Was that your exwife?

 

[GManBart]

Reminds me of the guy that says the BX25 and BX25D are the same.

Funny, nobody makes a BX25 that I'm aware of...they all have a D. Not sure how you missed that fact, but that's for another thread.

Some folks seem to be more interested in feelings than facts.

 

[94BULLITT]

Irrelevant questions. None of those change the fact that the 1 series is much larger than a BX, and essentially the same size as a Boomer 20/24/25.

Trying to suggest that a 1 series is a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 is a CUT is pretty silly, but go on beating the dead horse....it won't change what the tape measure reveals.

Since arbitrary decisions seem to agree with you, I think I'll make a counter; if it weighs under 1,800lbs, and has a two-range HST it's a SCUT.

The 1 series is not a larger tractor than a BX, it is the same frame size. The 3PH lift arms are longer on a 1 series so that is why it may be a little longer.

Dealers and other people agree that the Boomer 25 is not a SCUT.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-buying-pricing/233637-new-holland-subcompacts.html

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-buying-pricing/237259-boomer-25-a.html
You need to get out and look at one for yourself and then look at the BX or 1 series and a B series or a 2000 series. If you look at Boomer 25 you will see that everything about it is larger than a true SCUT.

 

[GManBart]

The 1 series is not a larger tractor than a BX, it is the same frame size. The 3PH lift arms are longer on a 1 series so that is why it may be a little longer.

Dealers and other people agree that the Boomer 25 is not a SCUT.

You need to get out and look at one for yourself and then look at the BX or 1 series and a B series or a 2000 series. If you look at Boomer 25 you will see that everything about it is larger than a true SCUT.

People can agree to anything, and still be wrong.

A BX and the 1 series are the same size, and it's all based upon some magically longer 3pt lift arms? Seriously, you're really going to make that claim? Okay.

Deere 1025R:
Weight (shipping): 1444 lbs [654 kg]
Wheelbase: 57.1 inches [145 cm]
Length: 87.6 inches [222 cm]
102.6 inches [260 cm] (with hitch and magic 3pt arms)
Width: 47.2 inches [119 cm] (r# tires) 47.3 (r$ tires)
Height (hood): 41.5 inches [105 cm]
Height (ROPS): 78.6 inches [199 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 12.3 inches [31 cm]
Rear axle: Flanged
Front tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]
Rear tread: 35.2 inches [89 cm]


BX2660:
Weight: 1,389 lbs [630 kg]
Wheelbase: 55.1 inches [139 cm]
Length: 95.5 inches [242 cm]
Width: 44.5 inches [113 cm]
Height (ROPS): 70.4 inches [178 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 8.7 inches [22 cm]
Front tread: 36.6 inches [92 cm]
Rear tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]

The 1 series is heavier, longer, taller, has a longer wheelbase, and is bigger in every way except rear tread....heck, it has 50% more ground clearance. Say what you want, but the two aren't the same size....magic lift arms or not. I do have to admit that I love how the fact that the 1 series is a full 10% longer becomes just "a little longer" when it suites you....it's almost cute.

I've seen all of the machines in question, in person, and they're all SCUTs. They weigh well under 2K pounds, have 2-range hydros, low limits on the 3pt and FELs, etc, etc, etc. They aren't all the exact same size, but they're all in the same ballpark. Much like the term "CUT" covers a broad range of machine sizes, there will be variation within the "SCUT" class. Trying to suggest that a 15-1700lb machine (LS and NH disagree on the shipping weights) is in the same category as something like your 4240 is just silly.

I'm pretty sure that if the FEL on my LS can lift it, it's still a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 wouldn't be a challenge.

Seriously, I can't fathom why you beat this poor, dead horse about how an inch here or there suddenly makes some tractors not SCUTs, or not "true SCUTs.". Who cares what title gets used? If somebody wants to buy one, they walk up to it, and if it seems big, they look at a different model...easy.

 

[94BULLITT]

Irrelevant questions. None of those change the fact that the 1 series is much larger than a BX, and essentially the same size as a Boomer 20/24/25.

Trying to suggest that a 1 series is a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 is a CUT is pretty silly, but go on beating the dead horse....it won't change what the tape measure reveals.

Since arbitrary decisions seem to agree with you, I think I'll make a counter; if it weighs under 1,800lbs, and has a two-range HST it's a SCUT.

People can agree to anything, and still be wrong.

A BX and the 1 series are the same size, and it's all based upon some magically longer 3pt lift arms? Seriously, you're really going to make that claim? Okay.

Deere 1025R:
Weight (shipping): 1444 lbs [654 kg]
Wheelbase: 57.1 inches [145 cm]
Length: 87.6 inches [222 cm]
102.6 inches [260 cm] (with hitch and magic 3pt arms)
Width: 47.2 inches [119 cm] (r# tires) 47.3 (r$ tires)
Height (hood): 41.5 inches [105 cm]
Height (ROPS): 78.6 inches [199 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 12.3 inches [31 cm] Wrong 7.7''
Rear axle: Flanged
Front tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]
Rear tread: 35.2 inches [89 cm]


BX2660:
Weight: 1,389 lbs [630 kg]
Wheelbase: 55.1 inches [139 cm]
Length: 95.5 inches [242 cm]
Width: 44.5 inches [113 cm]
Height (ROPS): 70.4 inches [178 cm]
Clearance (front axle): 8.7 inches [22 cm]
Front tread: 36.6 inches [92 cm]
Rear tread: 32.2 inches [81 cm]

The 1 series is heavier, longer, taller, has a longer wheelbase, and is bigger in every way except rear tread....heck, it has 50% more ground clearance. Say what you want, but the two aren't the same size....magic lift arms or not. I do have to admit that I love how the fact that the 1 series is a full 10% longer becomes just "a little longer" when it suites you....it's almost cute.

The 1 series is
55lbs heavier
7.1'' longer
2.7'' wider
-8.6'' taller BX2370 87.2 to ROPS
front axle clearance 1025 7.7 bx 8.7. The BX has 1'' more of axle clearance
Front tread 4.4 narrower
Rear tread 3'' narrower

I really don't see any difference in size or weight. The both also have the same size tires.

I've seen all of the machines in question, in person, and they're all SCUTs. They weigh well under 2K pounds, have 2-range hydros, low limits on the 3pt and FELs, etc, etc, etc. They aren't all the exact same size, but they're all in the same ballpark. Much like the term "CUT" covers a broad range of machine sizes, there will be variation within the "SCUT" class. Trying to suggest that a 15-1700lb machine (LS and NH disagree on the shipping weights) is in the same category as something like your 4240 is just silly.

Kubota and John Deere are probably the top 2 brands in the US. They call the BX and 1 series subcompact tractors. Kubota makes a B series and John Deere makes a 2000 series. These are the next step up from a sub compact tractor. They are also the same size as a Boomer 25.

I'm pretty sure that if the FEL on my LS can lift it, it's still a SCUT, and a Boomer 25 wouldn't be a challenge.

Seriously, I can't fathom why you beat this poor, dead horse about how an inch here or there suddenly makes some tractors not SCUTs, or not "true SCUTs.". Who cares what title gets used? If somebody wants to buy one, they walk up to it, and if it seems big, they look at a different model...easy.

I don't see why you can't get it. Apparently you have never looked at the tractors in question closely. I think it is misleading if a manufacturer calls a tractor a SCUT that is not a SCUT. If some one walks in dealer A and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them what is traditionally known as a SCUT. Then the person goes to dealer B and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them a tractor that is larger than a SCUT. The person is going to go home and look at the brochures and see tractor B will lift more on the loader and 3PH so they may buy it because of that. If dealer A would have know the person would be willing to go up to the next largest size tractor they could have showed it to them and possible made the sale and the person may like dealer A's tractor better than the one they ended up with.

 

[Code54]

Maybe the LSU AG Center can lay this to rest:

Subcompact tractor is a new category between garden tractors and compact utility tractors that is not defined by ASAE but offered by some manufacturers. Subcompact tractors are about the size (power and dimensions) of garden tractors but are built like compact utility tractors with water-cooled diesel engines, power- take-off (PTO), three-point hitch, remote hydraulics and heavy construction.

John Deere said the following:

John Deere offers four model series of compact utility tractors to meet the varying needs of customers: 1 Series sub-compact utility tractors (up to 25 hp); 2 Series compact utility tractors (24 to 31 hp); 3000 Series compact utility tractors (32 to 43 hp); and 4000 Series compact utility tractors (41 to 66 hp).
Example:
If you hit compare on the Deere site for the 1025R they compare their machine to:
Cub Cadet Sc2400
Kubota BX2360 HST
Kubota BX2660 HST
Massey Ferguson GC2400
Massey Ferguson GC2600
New Holland Boomer 1020
New Holland Boomer 1025

Kubota (From their website)
Start with the strength and versatility of a compact utility tractor. Blend them with the agile handling of 4WD and the feel of a garden tractor. Add new upgraded features, then reinforce the end product with incomparable reliability, and you've got the Kubota BX-Series.

The Oxford Dictionary
sub·com·pact / səbˈkämpakt/
• n. a motor vehicle that is smaller than a compact.

So I think we can see there is no definition or standard out there for these tractors so people can really call them what they like. There does not seem to be one standard anywhere that I could I locate. So it looks like everyone is right (or wrong depending if you are a glass half full or empty type)

 

[GManBart]

I don't see why you can't get it. Apparently you have never looked at the tractors in question closely. I think it is misleading if a manufacturer calls a tractor a SCUT that is not a SCUT. If some one walks in dealer A and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them what is traditionally known as a SCUT. Then the person goes to dealer B and says I want to look at a SCUT. The dealer shows them a tractor that is larger than a SCUT. The person is going to go home and look at the brochures and see tractor B will lift more on the loader and 3PH so they may buy it because of that. If dealer A would have know the person would be willing to go up to the next largest size tractor they could have showed it to them and possible made the sale and the person may like dealer A's tractor better than the one they ended up with.

Wait, so now the argument is that I should look really closely at the machines, because it takes that much effort to determine which is larger? If it's that hard to tell the difference, there isn't enough difference to make one a SCUT, and one a CUT. I've seen all of them in person, and while they aren't identical in size, they're all SCUTS in my opinion. There is no such thing as a 1,600lb "true" CUT (LS says the J2023/Boomer 24) weighs 1,565lbs. If it weighs well under 2K and has a 2-range hydro, it's a SCUT...if I can lift it on my FEL, it's definitely a SCUT.

So what you're also saying is that customers are stupid? If they look at A, and look at B, and can't see that one is a SCUT, and one is a CUT, who's at fault? If they look at the brochure, and like the increased capabilities of B, regardless of what category, you as the authority on tractor naming convention has decreed it should be, where is the problem if it didn't look too big for them? Nobody was misled...they looked at the machines, looked at the brochures, and could compare dimensions, specs, AND balance that with their own observations. They got to choose whichever machine met their needs. If they aren't smart enough to do any research, or visit more than one brand to check the machines out in person, that's their own fault, and not the fact that one company calls a tractor of X size a SCUT, and another calls it a CUT.

There is a size range within all the tractor categories commonly talked about. The larger SCUTs are close to the smallest CUTS, and the largest CUTs are close to the smallest Utility machines. There are no guidelines defining any of these categories, so all you're doing is complaining that your favorite brand might be losing sales to other brands because they market their machines differently.

You still haven't addressed how a 1,700lb Boomer 25 (LS says it's under 1,565lbs) could be in the same category of machine as your L4240 which weighs more than twice as much? One is a toy in comparison to the other....probably a sign they aren't in the same category.