Confused on PTO generator size

[zzvyb6]

Honda America has a simple web page to use for estimating how many watts you might needs to support with a generator. Just check the boxes for all the electrical stuff on your property. IMHO just buy the cheapest pto or inverter generator you can find when the time is right. When your power is out, the time is wrong. I have both: A Winpower 50kW and a Honda EU6500IS. You don't need to be running these devices 24/7, only when you need to reload the water pressure, reset the house temperature or locate the dog food.

This is not a complicated issue, so let's get on to more complex ones, like flood control, tornado damage control, and warm beer.

 

[buickanddeere]

This is exactly what I need but it would appear that is not approved in the Province of NB.....

Will probably end up with a double throw 3 pole switch that is ratd for exterior.

Two pole transfer switch for a floating neutral generator and a three pole generator that switches the neutral for a bonded neutral generator. Simpler to "un-bond" the generator and use a two pole transfer switch.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Never switch a neutral. I made that mistake once and was corrected. If that switch pole fails, you have nasty voltages appearing on your 110 volt circuits.

Someone mentioned frequency regulation. No such thing on a PTO generator. It's governed by the governor on the tractor. Frequency isn't that important at all. Your clocks may run fast or slow and your ups systems may not accept the power, but that's it, within reason.

A friend once had a 20KW PTO generator. All for the time he had it, his lights flickered. I told him to straighten the pto shaft which was not as straight a hookup to the tractor as one could get. I believe this was the cause, even though the man never listened to me if I knew something he didn't! Curious, if someone could confirm this situation about the crooked drive line.

 

[buickanddeere]

Never switch a neutral. I made that mistake once and was corrected. If that switch pole fails, you have nasty voltages appearing on your 110 volt circuits.

Double check the NEC and connection of single phase 120/240 neutral bonded generators .

 

[Soundguy]

Someone mentioned frequency regulation. No such thing on a PTO generator. It's governed by the governor on the tractor. Frequency isn't that important at all. Your clocks may run fast or slow and your ups systems may not accept the power, but that's it, within reason.

.

rpm of pto determines the freq on a non inverter system. on an inverter type generator.. then you have some silicon controling the freq.. just like your UPS does.

 

[MacTractor]

I will end up leaving this to the electrician but there is so many conflicting items on the internet with regards to this as some state that without switching the neutral you could still back feed on the neutral. (If somehow you made a mistage on Gen plug wiring, which would seem unlikely.)

Never switch a neutral. I made that mistake once and was corrected. If that switch pole fails, you have nasty voltages appearing on your 110 volt circuits.

Someone mentioned frequency regulation. No such thing on a PTO generator. It's governed by the governor on the tractor. Frequency isn't that important at all. Your clocks may run fast or slow and your ups systems may not accept the power, but that's it, within reason.

A friend once had a 20KW PTO generator. All for the time he had it, his lights flickered. I told him to straighten the pto shaft which was not as straight a hookup to the tractor as one could get. I believe this was the cause, even though the man never listened to me if I knew something he didn't! Curious, if someone could confirm this situation about the crooked drive line.

 

[gogojuice]

I tried the honda site and a few others. I'm hoping they estimate high because it looks like I can't run that much on a 10 kw gen. I don't know if someone can try one of the sites and see how accurate they are to what they are running. As for the transfer part.. I think MacTractor is right, there is so much conflicting information on the internet. It doesn't really help that were talking different states, and in some cases different countries. I'd probably check with a couple of electricians just to get an idea of what may be possible and what is not.

 

[buickanddeere]

I will end up leaving this to the electrician but there is so many conflicting items on the internet with regards to this as some state that without switching the neutral you could still back feed on the neutral. (If somehow you made a mistage on Gen plug wiring, which would seem unlikely.)

If you won't believe an electrician with a 309A Inter Provincial ticket . Who can read the NEC . Who are you going to believe ?

 

[daybreak1998]

Never switch a neutral. I made that mistake once and was corrected. If that switch pole fails, you have nasty voltages appearing on your 110 volt circuits.

Someone mentioned frequency regulation. No such thing on a PTO generator. It's governed by the governor on the tractor. Frequency isn't that important at all. Your clocks may run fast or slow and your ups systems may not accept the power, but that's it, within reason.

A friend once had a 20KW PTO generator. All for the time he had it, his lights flickered. I told him to straighten the pto shaft which was not as straight a hookup to the tractor as one could get. I believe this was the cause, even though the man never listened to me if I knew something he didn't! Curious, if someone could confirm this situation about the crooked drive line.

Howdy,
WRONG! WRONG!

You need to have the PTO generator spinning at the correct speed. You should have gauges on your PTO generator to have it closest to 60Hz. That is exactly what you want. You want clean proper power. It makes motors start better and things operate properly.

You can NOT always go by your tractor gauges. You might even have your PTO tractor gauge saying its at 510rpm. The important spinning speed is at your PTO generator gauge.
Here the tractor gauge says its at 512rpm with the unit running right where it should.
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkipkfuklko0i1l/2013-06-28%2016.21.02.mp4[/video]

Electrical products will receive a UL rating which means it can withstand certain variances. Like +-8% of standard 60Hz.

PTO generators need to spin at the proper rpm to make 60Hz and 110-130 volts, and yes, a sloppy worn out pto shaft does not help. Yes, the pto shaft needs to be as straight as possible.

PTO generators come in many models. You do get what you pay for. Smaller units spin at 3600rpm internally (2-pole) to make power while larger ones spin 1800rpm internally (4-pole) to make power. Some have AVR which is more electronic friendly.

 

[grsthegreat]

In 30 years ive never installed a residential transfer switch that switched the neutral loads...never. I have in 3 phase industrial situations though.

 

[alco141]

i ran a 25 kw generac off my 19 pto hp new holland for some years, as far as the frequency i would set it at 62hz with no load, after load it would settle down to 60 hz with rare fluctuation 59-61, with off and on refrigerators freezer and well pump, the electronics did not notice at all ran the tv and sat system with no problem along with the microwave. i had a transfer panel placed next to the main breaker box. has always worked. got a 10kw winco trifuel electric start so my wife could handle it later and sold the pto generator, only problem i had was that my wife could not hook it to the tractor.

alex

 

[Redneck in training]

Never switch a neutral. I made that mistake once and was corrected. If that switch pole fails, you have nasty voltages appearing on your 110 volt circuits.

Someone mentioned frequency regulation. No such thing on a PTO generator. It's governed by the governor on the tractor. Frequency isn't that important at all. Your clocks may run fast or slow and your ups systems may not accept the power, but that's it, within reason.

A friend once had a 20KW PTO generator. All for the time he had it, his lights flickered. I told him to straighten the pto shaft which was not as straight a hookup to the tractor as one could get. I believe this was the cause, even though the man never listened to me if I knew something he didn't! Curious, if someone could confirm this situation about the crooked drive line.

Crocked drive would induce vibrations but I would doubt it would make the light flicker (unless there was something lose in the control box). What could make the light flicker is incorrectly set up PTO drive shaft. In example to yokes of each end having 90 deg angular offset as opposed to 0 deg. Incorrect PTO shaft set up would cause rpm (frequency) changing during each revolution of the PTO because of angular speed of driven end of the shaft will be 180 deg faster and 180 deg slower than the PTO angular speed. Since rpm also affect voltage the lights might flicker.

 

[buickanddeere]

In 30 years ive never installed a residential transfer switch that switched the neutral loads...never. I have in 3 phase industrial situations though.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=Pq9cxQq6glxNlw2epDvtfQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.b2I

 

[grsthegreat]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=Pq9cxQq6glxNlw2epDvtfQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.b2I

interesting...never even seen one of these before. doubt ill ever use it though.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Nothing about back up power is simple! Think about this?

Do you really want your little tractor running (unattended) full-tilt powering a furnace blower, fridge and freezer compressors (which don't take bugger all) plus a few lights? I had this arrangment (albeit with an electically heated house) using a JD 770 compact and an Onan 15KW PTO genset. It was just too un-nerving for me. Always listening for the slightest signs that something may be going wrong!

If you have cows to milk, or a few thousand chickens to save in the summer heat, different story entirely, and I think that is the ideal (and intended) application for these PTO gensets.

Really, really makes me appreciate the mostly dependable electric utility power that we have.

 

[Soundguy]

why not? the tractor should be HAPPY to run at it's rated PTO hp and rpm as long as it has fuel. If not.. get a DIFFERENT , REAL tractor.

I've left my old antiques running a pto gen to power up a well and other power tools on my property before the power poles were in. We went out and worked doing fencing, trenchine for water.. etc.. for days. pto gen ran well, power tools, air comp.. etc... would run till she ran out of gas if you let her.. an these are 50's era tractors...

Nothing about back up power is simple! Think about this?

Do you really want your little tractor running (unattended) full-tilt powering a furnace blower, fridge and freezer compressors (which don't take bugger all) plus a few lights? I had this arrangment (albeit with an electically heated house) using a JD 770 compact and an Onan 15KW PTO genset. It was just too un-nerving for me. Always listening for the slightest signs that something may be going wrong!

If you have cows to milk, or a few thousand chickens to save in the summer heat, different story entirely, and I think that is the ideal (and intended) application for these PTO gensets.

Really, really makes me appreciate the mostly dependable electric utility power that we have.

 

[Industrial Toys]

They may well run without trouble. But then again they may not. If you think about it, what tractor is designed to run unattended? Not one I know of, or have ever seen, has automatic shutdowns.

And why do you think any respectable standby generator and many that arn't very respectable, have monitoring and shutdown for catastrophic conditions? Why not just leave them to run, happily at rated speed?

And are you risking a newer tractor, for which just to have the tractor delivered to the dealers door, costs more then one can buy some old antique for, never mind the labour and repairs.

 

[Soundguy]

are you skillfull enough to put in a murphy switch gauge ( or similar ) into an oil pressure feed line? temp gauge?

having an industrial engine power a genset, water pump isn't much different than having a tractor engine power it.

industrial engine apps for this are quite common.

It's ok if you are afraid to run your tractor. I got no issue with that.

Many of us bought our tractors to use.

If the tractor was going to suddenly blow up while running at pto rpm under load on the the genny.. it will do it on a mower.. plow.. etc...

Ever see belt driven equipment? threshers, sawmills.. etc. etc. Remember when belt pullies were standard equipment on tractors.. or at least optional? why? because people used tractors as stationary power devices. They didn't get away from it because it was a bad idea. people want to sell you more engines.. so each device has it's own now.. to maintain.. buy, fix.. ( money,money,money ) it's not because the tractors couldn't do it.

PS. your argument seems to ONLY include brand new tractors. thus your data is heavily skewed if you rule out any situation other than new...

just sayin....

They may well run without trouble. But then again they may not. If you think about it, what tractor is designed to run unattended? Not one I know of, or have ever seen, has automatic shutdowns.

And why do you think any respectable standby generator and many that arn't very respectable, have monitoring and shutdown for catastrophic conditions? Why not just leave them to run, happily at rated speed?

And are you risking a newer tractor, for which just to have the tractor delivered to the dealers door, costs more then one can buy some old antique for, never mind the labour and repairs.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Well yes, I'm afraid! Very afraid of the insane cost of parts and repairs these days.

I could very easily install Murphy type equipment on a tractor, but would rather opt for the standby genset that has all that already.

I'm just sayin that there is a difference between running stationary equipment with someone around, and firing up the tractor and going inside to watch a movie!

No argument though about older stuff being built better. Everything was overkill. Now it's just barely enough, if that!

Why do you suppose they call them Murphy Gauges Anyway? Do you think possibly it's because if something can go wrong it will? Hmmmmm?

 

[Soundguy]

I have absolutely no problem fireing up my NH 7610s tractor.. setting the throttle, and going inside. It's a good tractor. It will be fine. If not. it would have gone out running my batwing. Not much difference WHEN the tractor fails IF it is destin to fail.

Some people have IMHO odd opinions on running engines. It's no problem to have a standby genny.. or standalone genny ( water pump.. etc.. ), crank that sucker up to 3600governed rpm, and walk away.. and most of those are using 'lawnmower engine' technology.. yet.. add some rubber tires to it and all of a sudden it's failure prone., and not safe to walk away from. I simply wouldn't own a tractor i wasn't comfortable letting it run a genny or water pump, and then being somewhere else on my acerage NOT worrying about it.

walking around the box stores.. most gennies under 'house' size are run by essentially.. LAWNMOWER engines. I find those to be of LESS quality and durability than what is under my tractors hood.

I'd be more worried about walking away from my LAWNMOWER than my tractor. ( and I'm not real worried about the lawnmower either...... )

Lastly.

You seem to be mistaking me not being afraid to use my tractor, for me telling you to not be afraid to use your tractor. Nothing could be further from the truth! I fully support your personal opinion on how you want to use your machine. It's yours.. you paid for it. it's your dime to repair it.. so you can use it how you want to... property rights.. etc. I'm down with that. I just personally wouldn't own a machine that I didn't trust using... unless it was some sort of antique firearm.. or collector item that diminished in value with use. those things would be under glass.

good luck with your tractor. I hope it doesn't break down on you.. really.. because the way it sounds.. it may not be reliable? ( on the flip side.. if it does break down.. that's one of those 'opportunity' moments when you get to get your hands greasy. Don't get me wrong. Stuff DOES break down. It's a rare occasion that I bring home a tractor that does not need some wrenches waved over it.. and bottles of gooey stuff.. and boxes of paper and rubber and metal parts sprinkled over it.. that's life. I've had the heads off 2 tractors in the last 2 years to hammer out stuck valves.. both those tractors are now parked in 'work row' and waiting to do their tasks.. pushrods cost me about 17$ each on those.. and were bent so bad i had to cut them out of the block with bolt cutters! .. once you are that far in.. might as well do all new hoses and belts.. gaskets. head job if needed.. etc.. everything you can do as an in frame.. etc.. moral of the story is.. stuff happens. if stuff breaks while happening.. fix or replace it and keep going... can't stay inside constantly worrying about rain.. ( well.. you can.. but it's less fun and wears out your hands wringing them constantly

Well yes, I'm afraid! Very afraid of the insane cost of parts and repairs these days.

I could very easily install Murphy type equipment on a tractor, but would rather opt for the standby genset that has all that already.

I'm just sayin that there is a difference between running stationary equipment with someone around, and firing up the tractor and going inside to watch a movie!

No argument though about older stuff being built better. Everything was overkill. Now it's just barely enough, if that!

Why do you suppose they call them Murphy Gauges Anyway? Do you think possibly it's because if something can go wrong it will? Hmmmmm?