Power Beyond and Loader Simultaneous Operation

[J_J]

Do I get a finders fee for all my work.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/WHEEL-HUB-5-BOLT-1-1-4-TAPERED/edp_no=14413/shop.axd/ProductDetails

Wheel Motors / Wheel Hubs - Quadra Trading Corp - Handling Surplus Hydraulic Parts

4 Bolt Wheel Hub 1 1 4" Tapered Bore 1 3161 | eBay

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Well I don't know about fees but you sure have my appreciation. Surplus center looks to be a great source for stuff, I need to do a more diligent search there on my own I guess and save you the time. Couldn't find much using google.

Is that picture of the same motor you showed set up for an auger? Is there a planetary gear in there? I didn't think that motor had enough torque (1500-2000 ft lbs)to turn the auger without being run through some type of gear reduction. Maybe it doesn't take that nuch torque.

This looks similar to what I am wanting to build. Any more info on the set-up you have pictured? Please!!!!!

 

[J_J]

Here is the thread about the hyd auger built by Woodlandfarms.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/211829-post-hole-digger-build-blues.html

The hyd auger in the pic is direct drive.

This is my hyd auger built by Power-trac.

This is a hyd FEL mounted auger.http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...2548-hydraulic-post-hole-digger-new-image.jpg

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Thanks, I didn't see any info about how it worked for him. Woodlandfarms said in his post that the motor had 10K FTLbs. That was not correct it has 10K in lbs. So I am wonering if his auger was about 12 times weaker than he thought.

I like the three detent valve for the spool though.

I will test my relief pressure (since I now have a gauge), pick my motor, valve, gearbox, auger,weld it all up and bore some holes, or break some stuff and let you know what I come up with. Maybe that will offset some of your finders fees

 

[aczlan]

If I am understanding this correctly;
As long as I don't put full pressure on the loader the PB/auger would still turn although slower/less pressure depending on loader pressure. It would basically be a balancing act to get rotation and down pressure by me controlling the feed rate for the drill. When I stop applying down force I would get full auger force.
If that is the case then I think this would work because I could but pressure on intermittently with the loader which would hold with the weight of the tractor on the bit until it reached depth.

You are correct.

I had considered using a motor spool but decided that I would want to use the same spool for the grapple.

A motor spool, is mainly needed (for example) with a bushhog where it has a lot of mass that has to spin down when you shut it off. Shouldn't be really needed with an auger.

Aaron Z

 

[J_J]

Thanks, I didn't see any info about how it worked for him. Woodlandfarms said in his post that the motor had 10K FTLbs. That was not correct it has 10K in lbs. So I am wonering if his auger was about 12 times weaker than he thought.

I like the three detent valve for the spool though.

I will test my relief pressure (since I now have a gauge), pick my motor, valve, gearbox, auger,weld it all up and bore some holes, or break some stuff and let you know what I come up with. Maybe that will offset some of your finders fees

I saw that 10k ft lbs error also. It should be about 833 ft lbs, which is still plenty.

You would have to go with a very large motor to get much more ft lbs, and the speed would be slower,

I sent him a PM asking if he had stalled the auger very often.

My auger will stall if I try and drive it down real hard.

Here in Florida, we have a lot of sand.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

Your auger picture has a large bit. Understandable it it stalls. Looks like it could also have planetary between the motor and auger.

I will be drilling in rocks and roots. I would like to find out how much torque it takes to shear a 3/8 shear bolt in a two inch dia shaft and use that as my lower limit.

 

[J_J]

The hyd motor is direct drive.

Why do you even need shear bolts?

You will just have to try different bolts.

The relief valve should protect the motor.

That is a planter auger.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

I still plan to use the gear box, because I think I need around 1500 ft lbs of torque. Most auger gear boxes have a shear bolt on the auger to protect the gear box.

The motor will be protected by the relief valve like you said.

I want to use all of the potential of the gear box. So if I use the shear strength of the shear bolt as a minimum I will be able to match the motor torque with high enough torque to shear the bolt. That is what a lot of people says happens with PTO system. Now if that is my MINIMUM. I coul increase the bolt grade, take a chance on stripping my gear box, rely on the relief to protect my motor, and possible be able to drill through tough roots/rocks.

So far, I came up with 1350 ft lbs to shear the bolt based on .375" grade 5 bolt. This exceeds the wheel motor by about 500 ft lbs. I am not sure of my calculations, but that seems to fall in line with others I have seen online.

 

[J_J]

Here is just an example of a hyd planetary gear setup, showing a chart to the right.

Model EP10 | Danuser

They are using a 3.66:1 gear ratio to get it down to 48 rpm, and the chart shows the resultant torque with different psi figures.

Just got to get high displacement motors at a good price. Keep an eye out on EBAY.

Here is a mount for the side of your bucket.

http://www.danuser.com/attachments/auger-systems/parts/10489-mount

 

[TomSeller]

I saw that 10k ft lbs error also. It should be about 833 ft lbs, which is still plenty.
.

My Danuser has about 2,200 ft-lbs. I have not stalled it yet. I now wonder if the bit locks up if my tractor will go around in circles instead. I'll have all the kids hanging onto my backhoe bucket like a merry go round.

 

[J_J]

Yes, you will go around in circles, and you had better hold on

What is the largest auger you have used with it.

If your bit locks up, it will just go into relief.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

That Danuser head is $1445.00 just for the head. Out of my range! Good info on the chart though. They show a minimum auger RPM at 48. and max at 92 so that confirms my target of 80 rpm. The torque ratings also confirm my 1350 ft lbs calculations. Not sure I want to spin the tractor around like Tom seller, (might clear more land quicker that way though), but if I use a box and shear bolt that shouldn't happen.

So, I think with your help, and hopefully a good pressure test on my system this afternoon, I will be ready to order parts. My target for this project is $600-$700. No need for the mount. I will be mounting mine on my forklift fork. I will make all the mounting and attachments.

 

[aczlan]

That Danuser head is $1445.00 just for the head. Out of my range! Good info on the chart though. They show a minimum auger RPM at 48. and max at 92 so that confirms my target of 80 rpm. The torque ratings also confirm my 1350 ft lbs calculations. Not sure I want to spin the tractor around like Tom seller, (might clear more land quicker that way though), but if I use a box and shear bolt that shouldn't happen.

Having replaced many a snapped shearpin, just set your pressure relief on the motor to be just low enough not to snap a shearpin, it will save you lots of aggravation.

Aaron Z

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

OK I tested my tractor relief pressure. By curling the bucket until it bottomed, my system went up to 2100psi. So, this is what the relief is set to in the loader control valve. Now, if I add the power beyond and have a lower setting on the new control valve, attached through the power beyond port, then my system pressure relief will be set to the new valves relief setting. Correct?

So, that means I need to set the PB valve relief to 2100 psi also. Correct?

Thanks aczlan, that is good advice! But, I may be limited to keeping the relief pressure high in order to keep from loosing power on my loader. Assuming of course, that my understanding of the pressure relief is correct. If I start shearing a lot of bolts then I may increase the bolt grade at risk to my box, or lower the relief while using the auger and raise it back up when not in use if my loader is too weak.

Now that I know my pressure, target torque, and rpm for the auger I should be able to match it pretty closely with the gearbox and motor. Assuming my calculations are correct on the torque required to shear the bolt, I should be able to avoid shearing by learning the engine load/rpm, and lifting the auger when it becomes bogged down. With the auger attached to my loader, and fed through the PB port, when I lift the loader, it will reduce power to the auger at the same time the loader is lifting, which should avoid shearing the bolt. Again, that is, if I am understanding the hydraulics correctly.

The required torque to shear the bolt I am using just as a guide to help me determine the minimum power I need in a Hyd motor. Hopefully I will be able to prevent shearing, but I want it to be strong enough to do so.

 

[TomSeller]

Yes, you will go around in circles, and you had better hold on

What is the largest auger you have used with it.

If your bit locks up, it will just go into relief.

15" is the largest. It is rated up to 30" but no way I will need that.

 

[aczlan]

OK I tested my tractor relief pressure. By curling the bucket until it bottomed, my system went up to 2100psi. So, this is what the relief is set to in the loader control valve. Now, if I add the power beyond and have a lower setting on the new control valve, attached through the power beyond port, then my system pressure relief will be set to the new valves relief setting. Correct?
So, that means I need to set the PB valve relief to 2100 psi also. Correct?

Nope, look at it this way, pressure flows through your loader valve set at 2100PSI, on to the valve with the motor. You put a 1500PSI relief valve on the lines between the valve and the motor (this one perhaps? CROSSOVER RELIEF W/MAKEUP CHECK VALVES MANIFOLD MT )
It may see up to 2100PSI, but it will restrict the line going to the "in" port on the motor enough that it will never see more than 1500PSI.

Aaron Z

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

My pump pressue is higher than 2100. The relief in the loader is 2100. If I have the valve on the PB port set to 1500psi, and I am using my loader, wouldn't the pressure inside the loader valve and PB valve reach the same 1500 psi causing the relief in the PB valve to dump back to the tank?

If the PB valve is the last in valve in the circuit wouldn't that cause the entire circuit to have the same relief pressure (1500 psi)?

If so then that would mean I would no longer have 2100 available to the loader only 1500.

 

[J_J]

The relief pressure, is usually set by the first valve in the series path.

Most relief valves should be set the same.

However, if the motor is limited to say 1500 psi, then you would put a relief valve across the motor set to 1450 psi, and when the motor develops the pressure, it will relieve.

The rest of the hyd system relieves at the loader valve set pressure.

If you limit the pressure, you limit the torque.

 

[Thumbs Up Farm]

So, if I set the relief in the PB connected valve to 1500 it will not effect the loader?
I will want to set the relief high as my hyd motor can stand for my auger control in order to get the most torque.

These are my two front runners for motors at this time. I like the smaller motor because it has higher rpm in case I want to use a smaller bit for drilling. I can always slow the rpm down with engine throttle for the 12" bit. Of course, the bigger motor has more torque but I may not need that much torque if I am only drilling with a 12" max bit.

They are two different "Motor Types" and the smaller one has a much smaller shaft. Your thoughts on these two?

16.4 CU IN HYD NICHOLS MOTOR 106-7-AS-0

28.3 cu in WHITE RE WHEEL MOUNT HYD MOTOR