Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes

/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #1  

gunmonkeyintl

Silver Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
181
Location
NC
Tractor
DK40SE HST
I requested dual rear remotes on my new tractor build (strictly on the advice of others, not really being sure what I'll use them for).
The original remote is detented, and the second that they added is not.

Is there any valid function for a non-detented one? I have my BH hooked into the dtented one, and I get why you'd want to be able to turn it on and leave it on, but don't see why/how I would use the non-detented one.

Can detents normally be added? Is this something I should take up with the dealer?
it seems like having one of each type could be more flexible, but I want to make sure I have what will give me the most functionality down the road and want to take it up with the dealer ASAP.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #2  
You might even want a 4 spool valve.

Some will say if you have T-N-T, to get two spools with float.

If you use a log splitter, you might want detent valve.

If you use a hyd motor on an implement, you want detent.

There are several kinds of detents. Lock in detent, friction detent, and kick off detent.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes
  • Thread Starter
#3  
That is pretty much all greek to me.

All that I know is that one of my remote handles can be clicked into A/B/off, and that the other one has to be pushed to A/B and returns to off as soon as I release it.

I know that my question can be difficult to answer since I don't know exactly what I am going to use it for, but I'm trying to get an understanding between how my two remotes function and if it is something I need to get corrected.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #4  
Why not tell us what you wanted from the dealer.

You have to know the use of all the implements you might use to make that kind of decision.

The dealer probably sold you what he thought might need.

It should be your choice.

Some valves have options for detent.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes
  • Thread Starter
#5  
I guess that is the problem - I do not know.
Several posters on this forum recommended that I request a second set of remotes installed from the factory. The logic was that it would be less expensive to do it when I ordered the tractor, than to add them later.

When I discussed a second set of remotes with the dealer, he did not present any options, so I assumed that they would come in one configuration. It was not until he delivered it that I saw that there was a difference, and am now trying to figure out what the practical difference is and how it will affect my functionality.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #6  
non detent valv is good to lift a tail wheel or fold a batwing.. or lift / lower lift axles.. etc. anything you want controll over vs letting it go full stroke, relieve and pop detent.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #7  
You do know what a spring center valve is correct, when you release the lever, the lever springs back to neutral, and hyd action stops and holds the cyl in place.

You have heard people mentioned T-N-T, which is used for box blade, bucket drag and etc.

You might use a spring centered spoolwith float which is detented so the box blade will follow the conture of the ground.

A three way detent will detent in all positions, and is useful for constant hyd flow.

A 4 spool valve would be ideal for med to heavy tractor use.

A 4 spool monoblock valve or a 4 spool stacked valve which can be modified later if necessary.

Do you have the option of changing the remotes taking into account the expense that might occur.

You could order up exactly what you want with the do it yourself attitude, and learn while doing.

Places like http://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulic.asp

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_hydraulics

http://baileynet.com/

You can save quite a bit of money by doing it yourself.



.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes
  • Thread Starter
#8  
You do know what a spring center valve is correct, when you release the lever, the lever springs back to neutral, and hyd action stops and holds the cyl in place...

...A three way detent will detent in all positions, and is useful for constant hyd flow.
.


That is actually helpful, and is starting to make sense. I did not realize that the cylinder would hold position after the handle sprung back to center. I though that the pressure would spring back as well, and that I would have to hold the handle in position to keep the implement where I wanted it. I can see where a non-detented one could have some functional value now.


Do you have the option of changing the remotes taking into account the expense that might occur.

You could order up exactly what you want with the do it yourself attitude, and learn while doing.

Places like Surplus Center - Hydraulic Cylinders Pumps Motors

Hydraulics: Hydraulic Cylinders, Hydraulic Pumps, Hydraulic Valves + More | Northern Tool + Equipment

Hydraulic Cylinders | Bailey Hydraulics | Hydraulic Supplier

You can save quite a bit of money by doing it yourself.

That really gets to the heart of my question - however poorly-worded on my part. I wanted to know if I would be able to reconfigure it later if I needed to, once I figure out how I'm really going to use the hydraulics on this machine. I have no issue working on things like that on my own. Depsite the ignorance of my questions here, I am actually quite mechanically-inclined. I just happen to have zero experience with hydraulics, and almost as little in tractors/implements.

Now that I know that there is some valid functionality to a non-detented remote, and that I can reconfigure it later, I will "hold what I got" until I figure out exactly how I'm going to use it and reconfigure it as-needed.

Thanks.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #9  
I use the second remote with non detent to run my Grapple also good for Top link.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #10  
Some valves, you order the kits when new from the manufacturer, and others you can do in the field whenever you choose.

This is a monoblock 4 spool valve, spring centered.

Surplus Center - 4 SPOOL 14 GPM PRINCE WVS41BBBB5C1 DA VALVE

If you look to the right you can see the extra things that one can do with this valve.

There is the three position detent kit for one spool or all spools.

It can be converted to closed center or PB.

You can make the valve into a joystick valve.

The pressure on a valve with the lever in neutral is very low if the bucket is on the ground, and if raised,the pressure is dictated by the load on the cyl.

A hyd gage is very helpful in understanding hydraulics.

I would highly recommend a 3000 psi gage in a tee in the IN port of the loader valve where you can see it to monitor and trouble shoot the hyd system. It will show the pressure develop by any hyd action.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #11  
That is actually helpful, and is starting to make sense. I did not realize that the cylinder would hold position after the handle sprung back to center.

Well, be careful now. You can basically set up a hydraulic system to do whatever you want, so don't assume there's a way that it's always going to be. For example: if your three-point hitch has position control, and most do (exception being the smaller Kubotas), there will be a lever, and that lever's position directly maps to the height of your three-point hitch. The lever stays where you put it. So you move the lever all the way up and your three-point comes all the way up and stays there. You move the lever all the way down and the three-point goes all the way down and stays there. And thus, for every position in between. This is desirable because you often want to be able to put three-point implements at a certain fixed height relative to the tractor. For example, if I am backing a hay spear into a bale, I want to put the spear at just the right height to hit the middle of the bale.

The three-point lever is NOT spring-loaded, which is why it does not return to center, and it DOES have position control, which means that the position of the lever directly maps to the position of the hydraulic cylinder that controls the three-point.

Okay... that all being said, the three-point is mostly the exception to the rule. Let's take your front-end-loader now. The FEL controls ARE spring-loaded. This means that they return to center when you release them. And they do NOT have position control. That means that the hydraulic cylinders stay wherever you left them when the lever returns to center. So you push the lever a little bit forward to lower the bucket, and a little bit backward to raise the bucket. You push the lever a lot forward to lower the bucket faster, and vice versa. The amount by which you move the lever controls the speed of the cylinders' movement, but it does not relate to the position of the cylinders.

Most levers with position control are NOT spring-loaded, and vice versa. In fact, I'm not sure there are any exceptions, but somewhere out there somebody has built a spring-loaded, position control setup that will prove me wrong.

What about detents? To understand detents, first realize that a hydraulic control lever is just opening and closing a valve to allow hydraulic fluid to flow. Just like turning on your garden hose. So what about an implement with a hydraulic motor in it like a backhoe or a wood splitter? That implement needs a continuous flow of hydraulic fluid, to run the motor, and then it has its own set of valves to which it feeds pressure as needed. So in that setup, one way to handle it is to install a Power Beyond port, which is just a hydraulic port that always has hydraulic pressure. It's not attached to any lever. Just like an electric plug in the wall without a switch, you plug into it when you need power. Another way to handle an implement that needs constant flow is to put a detent on one of your remotes. What this does is lock the handle in the "open" position so that fluid is constantly flowing.

What's the up-side of detents? The main up-side is that you don't have to use a bungee cord to hold the lever in the open position when you're running your backhoe or wood splitter. They do have a down-side, though. If you have a regular hydraulic cylinder hooked up to the remote, instead of a hydraulic motor, and you put the lever in the detent position, the hydraulic cylinder will extend, and then it will hit the limit of its motion and the pressure in the system will rise until it goes into relief. When the system is in relief, heat builds up in the hydraulic fluid, and eventually, you burn out your hydraulic pump. A little relief is okay and necessary. Running the system in constant relief is called "deadheading the pump" and will destroy it if allowed to happen too long. Deadheading can also occur if you have no implement at all hooked up to the remote and you put the lever in the detent position. For these reasons, some users prefer to order their remotes without any detents. They just grab a bungee cord when they need to run a splitter. This guarantees them that the pump will never be stuck feeding a dead-end circuit.

If you have a backhoe that is fed by one of your remotes, that's probably why the dealer ordered you one remote with detent. The backhoe will be run off the detent remote. The dealer doesn't want you having to carry around a bungee cord every time you want to use your backhoe. But it's uncommon to see more than one detent remote on a tractor, at least the CUTs with which I'm familiar, because it's seldom the case that you're running TWO wood splitters, or a backhoe AND a wood splitter at the same time--and even if you were, your little tractor probably doesn't have sufficient hydraulic flow to actually make them operate correctly.

Hope that all helped...
 
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/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #12  
One last thing: usually, if you have a detent valve, you can remove the "stops" that create the detent to make it a non-detent valve, if you want to. At least that's my understanding.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #13  
One last thing: usually, if you have a detent valve, you can remove the "stops" that create the detent to make it a non-detent valve, if you want to. At least that's my understanding.

Yes, that is true, just remove the balls and springs or the detent assembly to return the spool to spring center.

You have to add back the spring centering springs.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Joshuabardwell, that was EXTREMELY helpful, thank you. That was exactly what I needed. I actually realized the bit about the non-detented, non-position-control (though I didn't know that term) this evening when I was running the backhoe removing some small stumps. The control levers and the stabilizer levers work the same way as my non-detented remote lever- they leave the implement where I put it when I let them spring back to center. It they were detented, they would keep "pushing" after I let go. It seems simple now and I feel kind of dumb but, like I said, I am just learning hydraulics. And I noticed that my 3-point lift was non-detented and had no spring. It is directly linked to the rear position lever so I was able to figure out how it worked without having anything attached to the hitch.

Your other points, and those of the rest of the posters, give me some starting points for further understanding.

I'm kind of tempted now to remove the detents from the one remote and use a bungee. What would be ideal is if there is a valve I could put on the line somewhere to turn off that remote so that it couldn't be accidentally engaged without a motor attached. I'd have to remember to turn it back on when i hook up something with a motor, but it would reduce the risk of damage.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #15  
Some owners get a small hose and hook it up in place of the BH connections when not in use. How does your BH hook up? Return to tank fill?
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #16  
Since I don't have a BH, the detent is actually kind of a pain. I use one remote for my Grapple, and the other for my top link hydraulic. I've thought about removing the detent as I have accidentally pushed it into detent and was deadheading the hydraulics when I was not using the grapple. I just switched which side was working the grapple and which side the top link to limit that from happening again.

I also have the option on the front end connector to hook up the lines that go to the grapple together as one side is male and the other female when the grapple is off, sorta like Murph is suggesting. Seems like that might also help keep the connectors free of dirt.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #17  
I'm kind of tempted now to remove the detents from the one remote and use a bungee. What would be ideal is if there is a valve I could put on the line somewhere to turn off that remote so that it couldn't be accidentally engaged without a motor attached. I'd have to remember to turn it back on when i hook up something with a motor, but it would reduce the risk of damage.

What you are describing is something that would route the flow from the remote back to the tank. The easiest way to do this is to have a short length of hydraulic hose made, and just hook the output and the return ports of the remote into each other. Then, if the lever is locked in the detent position, no dead-heading will occur, because the pump will just push the fluid through the circuit. There will be some wasted fuel, but other than that, no harm done. When you are using your backhoe, disconnect the short hose and put it back when you're done.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #18  
What you are describing is something that would route the flow from the remote back to the tank. The easiest way to do this is to have a short length of hydraulic hose made, and just hook the output and the return ports of the remote into each other. Then, if the lever is locked in the detent position, no dead-heading will occur, because the pump will just push the fluid through the circuit. There will be some wasted fuel, but other than that, no harm done. When you are using your backhoe, disconnect the short hose and put it back when you're done.

great idea!
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes #19  
If you plan to use the valves for a loader you do not want dents.
I have the type of valve for my grapple that has a dent that "kicks out" (at the end of the cylinder travel, or a preset pressure). I use it the most when opening the grapple. I move the lever into the dent position and the grapple starts to open. My hand is then free to do something else (like go back to the loader joystick). When the grapple is fully open the valve "kicks out" of dent and goes back to neutral.
 
/ Dtented vs non-Detented Remotes
  • Thread Starter
#20  
The easiest way to do this is to have a short length of hydraulic hose made, and just hook the output and the return ports of the remote into each other. Then, if the lever is locked in the detent position, no dead-heading will occur, because the pump will just push the fluid through the circuit. There will be some wasted fuel, but other than that, no harm done. When you are using your backhoe, disconnect the short hose and put it back when you're done.

Perfect. Thanks!
 

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