Hard time with new tractor

[RaydaKub]

The year that my dad passed I acquired his old 1968 Simplicity Broadmoor lawn tractor.

I totally understand that whole feeling. I still wish I knew what happened to the old 8N, Model A, 730, and 930. Oddly enough, my dad gave me his last lawn tractor, a little STX38 when he lost his sight. It was over matched for my lawn, but I used it for 9 years before I got my BX. The day I sold it was also the night he passed away.

 

[Carl_NH]

Arrow's been at the dealer all day today I suspect weighing his options.

How about an update, sir?

Respectfully,

Carl

 

[arrow]

Arrow's been at the dealer all day today I suspect weighing his options.

How about an update, sir?

Respectfully,

Carl

Missed it by a day Carl. I spent this aft and drove both tractors. Did a bit of digging with them as well. Let's take price out of the equation. The truth of the matter is I seem to be ambivalent about the whole thing. There are things I like about the hydro and things I don't same as the gear. I feel i have more control of torque and speed with the gear but going back and forth is certainly easier with the hydro. I don't like the fact that the hydro had to scream to go up this incline he has there when in high. Perhaps one needs more hp with hydro such as the 3616 has? Dunno and I'm not done yet. If I have a 2000lb stem attached and going up an incline, I'm certainly not going to appreciate going too slow or a tractor needing to peak out its rpm range. The gear was easier to handle this time but I'll definitely give the hydro a couple more goes before I decide. With cars and trucks, I drove sticks all my life and still prefer them but I seem to be of the minority. Perhaps this may be why I'm not as taken with hydro as some here.
I did experience something surprising to me considering all that's been said about industrials and that was on dry, packed gravel, the industrials had more bite than the ags when walking into the gravel pile he has there to test out fels and such. The guy at the dealership said I'd notice a difference if I had to go through a mud hole he said the industrials would act like slicks. Couldn't tell you either way as I have only owned ags. I do like the fact of the added ballast to be put into the industrials. One of these tires filled would weigh over 500lbs and probably closer to 600 if you count the tire itself. That's quite the ballast.

 

[k0ua]

Arrow, one thing to remember, is with the Hydro transmission if you have 3 ranges, like I believe the Mahindra 3016hst to have.. then the top range Or HI is ONLY good for moving the tractor down a flat road.. You do not ever do any work in HI range.. Only LO and MED. Low for grunting, pushing pulling etc. and MED for your fast travel range on the jobsite, and moderate loader work, and moderate mowing. Some tractors will mow ok in MED but it depends on the mower, how sharp the blades, and how many moderate hills you have.. again. HI is only transport on flat ground.. At least every hydro tractor I have owned (3) has been that way.

James K0UA

 

[k0ua]

In my Opinion, the Industrials are not "worthless" in mud, but they are not as good as AG's. And they do "load up" easier with mud and not clean as well. But for 90 percent of the time they are superior, especially for loader work, and tougher in the woods. They all suck on ice in my opinion. Chains are the answer there.

 

[RaydaKub]

I do like the fact of the added ballast to be put into the industrials. One of these tires filled would weigh over 500lbs and probably closer to 600 if you count the tire itself. That's quite the ballast.

Why couldn't you load ags? The size might vary some, so perhaps less weight, but I doubt you would notice that much difference.

 

[the old grind]

+1 what k0ua said in #124-5. (simul-poster, that he is. :laughing

Arrow, you shouldn't be surprised that a HST wouldn't climb much of an incline in 'high'. You wouldn't just mash the throttle more to tow in top gear with your truck, you'd downshift. The range selector is there to multiply torque to the wheels by choosing the range that doesn't require revving higher. That's why it's there and why neither an auto or 'stick' in a car is a 1-speed. Just as with a gear tractor there's shifting to do and the throttle stays put.

I guess we could parallel this to shop machinery, where a motor has its one locked-in speed and we select a spindle speed for the task at hand. (Mill, lathe, drill press) You may have noticed that revving the engine wouldn't get you up a hill any faster, just more noisily, because pump flow and pressure are fairly constant above idle. More pump rpm won't increase either one enough to notice once you're at relief pressure. The 'torquemotor' in a HST has its limits, and we have ranges to expand its usable output to the wheels.

I've noticed that with my mower or Terramite, both 1-speed HSTs, the best way to get up a steep slope is to back off the hydro-pedal a smidge vs giving it more, with rpm unchanged, obviously. Noise drops, but progress doesn't seem any less. My point is that while there's a learning curve to operating HSTs few will get the hang of it right away. It may take several hours (10 or 20?) to get fully used to HST power delivery and to appreciate how it differs from geared drives, tho' 'getting used to it' shouldn't take much longer than that.

btw: there are two-range (vs 3) hydros, and IMO that's just not enough. I use lo for working the hardest, and hi only for traveling unloaded. Middle range is great for maneuvering or general use without the compromises the extremes of lo & hi. (too slow or no oomph). It's the range I'd prefer if only one was available.

 

[arrow]

+1 what k0ua said in #124-5. (simul-poster, that he is. :laughing

Arrow, you shouldn't be surprised that a HST wouldn't climb much of an incline in 'high'. You wouldn't just mash the throttle more to tow in top gear with your truck, you'd downshift. The range selector is there to multiply torque to the wheels by choosing the range that doesn't require revving higher. That's why it's there and why neither an auto or 'stick' in a car is a 1-speed. Just as with a gear tractor there's shifting to do and the throttle stays put.

I guess we could parallel this to shop machinery, where a motor has its one locked-in speed and we select a spindle speed for the task at hand. (Mill, lathe, drill press) You may have noticed that revving the engine wouldn't get you up a hill any faster, just more noisily, because pump flow and pressure are fairly constant above idle. More pump rpm won't increase either one enough to notice once you're at relief pressure. The 'torquemotor' in a HST has its limits, and we have ranges to expand its usable output to the wheels.

I've noticed that with my mower or Terramite, both 1-speed HSTs, the best way to get up a steep slope is to back off the hydro-pedal a smidge vs giving it more, with rpm unchanged, obviously. Noise drops, but progress doesn't seem any less. My point is that while there's a learning curve to operating HSTs few will get the hang of it right away. It may take several hours (10 or 20?) to get fully used to HST power delivery and to appreciate how it differs from geared drives, tho' 'getting used to it' shouldn't take much longer than that.

btw: there are two-range (vs 3) hydros, and IMO that's just not enough. I use lo for working the hardest, and hi only for traveling unloaded. Middle range is great for maneuvering or general use without the compromises the extremes of lo & hi. (too slow or no oomph). It's the range I'd prefer if only one was available.

Ok, so I cannot use high for work with a hydro as I can a gear. In other words with a 2 range gear, I can put it in 1st in high range (which is considered 5th gear) and actually do work. With a hydro, I can only use medium and lo. So a 2000lbs log would be skidded in low or medium with hydro? Low is real slow. This will be my next step: to ascertain travel speeds in certain ranges with the hydro. Right now the lowest speed with the JD to skid such a log is 3rd. Cannot stand going any slower than that and most of the time I'll use 4th. What is nice about gear selection is that I do not have to go all out rpm wise to do work. Still have to get the hang of this hydro thing. My tractor does not cut grass nor much fel work except to lift and pile logs. I also use the fel for snow removal. Apparently I need to be more scrutinizing on how hydro works.

 

[k0ua]

Arrow, MED range can move far far faster than you would ever want to skid any log.. But like you said, try it yourself, and see what you think.

 

[Carl_NH]

Arrow,

The guys, Oldgrind and K0ua have explained Low-Med-High Hydro use very well, and in fact the same way I use my machine in the woods, trails and high speed use as needed.

Many times between loads I run in high to get to the pile and shift into Med/Lo then load up and traverse in high to the dump site and then use Med to spread and distribute the load.

It's a matter of getting used to a new paradigm and using it as needed. Glad to hear you are out and about and testing the machines.

Carl

 

[arrow]

Why couldn't you load ags? The size might vary some, so perhaps less weight, but I doubt you would notice that much difference.

You can certainly fill ags and i would not own this size tractor w/o filling tires no matter what they are.. A 43" industrial is taking on 45 gallons of Rim Guard. I do not know what an 11.2 ag can hold but my 9.5x24 hold around 20. Perhaps the larger ag can hold 5 or 6 more gallons. I think you would notice a difference especially if you are trying to lift something heavy. The loaded ind tires make the tractor weigh 500 lbs more than the loaded ags which in my mind is not so easily dismissed even if the ags provide more traction.

 

[murphy1244]

And traction is power.

 

[Carl_NH]

Arrow,

Posting at the same time, but just to explain, 95% of the time I use Med at 1500-1800 RPM, for deep woods maneuvering or delicate work I use low, for transport and plowing snow Hi range to curl the snow off the drive.

The difference from 8 speeds manual to a 3 speed hydro you have infinite speeds and torque in each range, so think of it as a 15 speed but you control the speed and torque applied with the hydro.

Carl

 

[arrow]

And traction is power.

True but traction is also dependent on foot print. I've only owned ags so I cannot speak to all situations. The ind. tires I tried this aft had more force into the pile. The ags broke loose and started digging. Pulling tractors have relatively shallow lugs but their foot print is much larger. I think the industrials had the better traction as a result of providing more foot print on a harder surface. Now on wet leaves with a couple inches of snow, who knows? Without knowing for a 3500-4000lb machine in such conditions, its probably safer to stay with ags if I did not want to spend the money chaining up the industrials..

 

[Carl_NH]

Arrow,

Posting at the same time, but just to explain, 95% of the time I use Med at 1500-1800 RPM, for deep woods maneuvering or delicate work I use low, for transport and plowing snow Hi range to curl the snow off the drive.

The difference from 8 speeds manual to a 3 speed hydro you have infinite speeds and torque in each range, so think of it as a 15 speed but you control the speed and torque applied with the hydro.

Carl

 

[arrow]

Arrow,

Posting at the same time, but just to explain, 95% of the time I use Med at 1500-1800 RPM, for deep woods maneuvering or delicate work I use low, for transport and plowing snow Hi range to curl the snow off the drive.

The difference from 8 speeds manual to a 3 speed hydro you have infinite speeds and torque in each range, so think of it as a 15 speed but you control the speed and torque applied with the hydro.

Carl

Carl, I dunno if all hydros work the same but in order to get more speed out of the Mahindra, it was a matter of adjusting the column mounted lever. The pedal would only allow so much speed before you had to increase speed at the lever. I should ask if I can attach my truck to the hydro and attempt to pull it up the incline.

 

[Carl_NH]

Arrow,

I am no expert in fact know little to nothing about Mahindra. BUT, my experience is tractors since the 60's (IH 86 Hydros) and today's hydro transmissions are not too different, just better.

The final drive ratio - Hi-Med-Lo is mechanical, the input is the hydro pump, thus the final gearing is mechanical enabling the hydro pump swash plate (controlled by the foot pedal) allows more/less fluid into the final drives.

I doubt that Mahindra is any different, should be a Hi-Med-Lo range, and then a pedal on the floor to control the swash plate of the hydro.

Others that have Mahindra 3016 hydro out there? I know PSUTundra in PA just bought one..

I like to understand how the Mahindra is set up as it sounds odd by your explanation Arrow..

Carl

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Missed it by a day Carl. I spent this aft and drove both tractors. Did a bit of digging with them as well. Let's take price out of the equation. The truth of the matter is I seem to be ambivalent about the whole thing. There are things I like about the hydro and things I don't same as the gear. I feel i have more control of torque and speed with the gear but going back and forth is certainly easier with the hydro. I don't like the fact that the hydro had to scream to go up this incline he has there when in high. Perhaps one needs more hp with hydro such as the 3616 has? Dunno and I'm not done yet. If I have a 2000lb stem attached and going up an incline, I'm certainly not going to appreciate going too slow or a tractor needing to peak out its rpm range. The gear was easier to handle this time but I'll definitely give the hydro a couple more goes before I decide. With cars and trucks, I drove sticks all my life and still prefer them but I seem to be of the minority. Perhaps this may be why I'm not as taken with hydro as some here.
I did experience something surprising to me considering all that's been said about industrials and that was on dry, packed gravel, the industrials had more bite than the ags when walking into the gravel pile he has there to test out fels and such. The guy at the dealership said I'd notice a difference if I had to go through a mud hole he said the industrials would act like slicks. Couldn't tell you either way as I have only owned ags. I do like the fact of the added ballast to be put into the industrials. One of these tires filled would weigh over 500lbs and probably closer to 600 if you count the tire itself. That's quite the ballast.

If you were to go with the 3616, you get 29% more HP, and you can do a lot more with that power. My 3215 HST dynos out with 34HP. My tractor ballasts out at 5000lbs. I can push up against an immoveable object and spin front and rear tires in all 3 ranges. I can travel in high range up hill at 11MPH without problem. I have NEVER had a want for more HP with this tractor. Now that is with 6 more HP than what you are testing. The 3616 has 8 more HP than what you are testing.

You asked about travel speeds, my 3215 HST is the following. Low range, 4.5MPH max, Mid goes 8MPH and High is 11MPH. The 16 series should be the same or very close.


Something to consider, but then where do you stop? :confused3:

Good luck with your research.

 

[Coyote machine]

Carl, I dunno if all hydros work the same but in order to get more speed out of the Mahindra, it was a matter of adjusting the column mounted lever. The pedal would only allow so much speed before you had to increase speed at the lever. I should ask if I can attach my truck to the hydro and attempt to pull it up the incline.

Hi on a hydro is only for cruising on a flat road, or similar tasks. You will get more use out of medium all day long. I seldom go to low, or high, on a daily basis. Sometimes lifting your foot off or easing off the forward pedal will allow the hydro to give you more power. It's counter-intuitive but it works well. Planting the pedal to the floor will not give you more power in a given range. It takes some learning curve, but it is easy to adapt to if you've never done it before. RPM setting can be done on the fly and will become known as to what to set it at for a required task. My tractor came with industrials, loaded, and I use Aquiline chains for plowing during the winter. Put it in medium and tow your truck up Everest.

 

[Coyote machine]

Carl, I dunno if all hydros work the same but in order to get more speed out of the Mahindra, it was a matter of adjusting the column mounted lever. The pedal would only allow so much speed before you had to increase speed at the lever. I should ask if I can attach my truck to the hydro and attempt to pull it up the incline.

Hi on a hydro is only for cruising on a flat road, or similar tasks. You will get more use out of medium all day long. I seldom go to low, or high, on a daily basis. Sometimes lifting your foot off or easing off the forward pedal will allow the hydro to give you more power. It's counter-intuitive but it works well. Planting the pedal to the floor will not give you more power in a given range. It takes some learning curve, but it is easy to adapt to if you've never done it before. RPM setting can be done on the fly and will become known as to what to set it at for a required task. My tractor came with industrials, loaded, and I use Aquiline chains for plowing during the winter. Put it in medium and tow your truck up Everest.