4X4 downhill traction issue

[Dutch445]

I had a customer with a new JD X730 with issues on a hill, except he was also running a bagger. I went out to see, and took a video you
can look at here. New X730 mowing hill - YouTube
It's not as steep as the OP hill, but the same thing was happening , going downhill he was losing traction. I told him to use the diff lock,
and that at least keeps both rear wheels together, and i also asked him to go up the steepest parts, and go down where it wasn't as steep.
This is a 2wd, with 54D mower and 3bag bagger, 4 front weights.
There were concerns of power, but i think the young operator was trying to take the hill full speed and wasn't letting the hydro take it
as it could. (he mows 12-14 lawns in the neighborhood)
I think one of the OP issues is going to be the smaller size tires, not necessarily the tread. turf tires have more surface area in contact
with the ground, and on grass i'm never sold on more aggressive tires as it concentrates all of the traction on less surface, and thefore
in some cases you don't gain. extra weight will help the OP, but he really may need a little larger tractor with larger tires.

 

[stevem5215]

Or get a Steiner. Good for 30 degree grades and I'm sold with how mine works. It's by the far the best machine to use on a hill. The 4wd system is 2nd to none. I've used mine on a ice covered driveway that I couldn't even walk up and that 4wd never slipped a tire. It is pretty awesome in my book !

Steve who's slipped down many a hill with 2wd or 4wd tractors.

 

[Gem99ultra]

I'm mowing a dam bank that's about the same slope, with a Husqvarna GTH26V52LS; turf tires. One thing that I found helps is to mow the steepest part downhill, making an oval pass, and go uphill with the lesser slope. BUT - I did fill all the tires and added 50# weights to the back. The water in the tires amounted to 13# each in back.

Unfortunately I had to empty the front tires. The weight simply made steering too heavy for my liking. Doing that, however, didn't seem to effect the traction at all. Still, I mow down pretty slowly, letting the hydrostat do the braking. This setup has worked fine for me for two seasons.

The tire change that you're planning might completely take care of the traction problem. Please let us know.

 

[bcp]

I've had some problems with those dam banks, too.

Bruce

 

[locknut]

Mowed again Sunday using the big 54" deck.Had to mow uphill on all the steepest parts and the tractor had no problem dragging the heavier deck uphill.When I mow again in a couple weeks I'll switch the rear wheels out from my old 3210V that has filled Firestone AG tires.Maybe turn them backwards for more downhill traction.

Still thinking about a braking system for the front wheels.The only way to get discs up there is to weld 8"spacer rings to the wheels,then fasten discs to the rings.The wheels would have to be reversed to do this to get enough clearance.Then custom brackets made for each side for caliper mounts.I'd be more apt to start this project if I could find a set of wheels that would fit this axle to experiment with.Has to be 3/4" hub center and 3/16" key slotted.Amazingly,the OEM wheels are not even available.

 

[twomanytractors]

Just now jumping in - this thread caught my interest because I've been mowing a steep hill for 11 yrs now with a 2 wheel drive Wheel Horse 314-8 (gear drive). I have loaded chevron type ag tires (Carlisle) on back and it will climb straight up, wet or dry, without fail. It will slide on the way down if it's damp or wet. My solution? I always mow up and down at a 45 degree angle to the slope of the hill. I shift my bodyweight on the seat to the uphill (light) side regardless of which way I'm going. This has worked well for 11 years without a slip of any kind. Again, this is a gear drive garden tractor, so I've always wondered how a hydro tranny would handle this. Either way, traction is traction so as long as your wheels aren't slipping I would think the hydro would behave in the same manner.

 

[PTVJR]

I read up to p5 then skipped to the end. I have plenty of roadside ditch to mow and a double mound system. I cut them side ways otherwise you're scalping the top and not cutting the bottom. If I cut up & down I need a "running" start to get up. No problems going down. I've had back peddling cases if I didn't start from a creep going down but no loss of control. I've used a '72 CubCadet 127 with 42" deck. It has the original turf rib tires in front and original turf rear tires. It has W6 front wheel weights in the rear wheels. (They fit flush and give a clean look.) They don't make like that any more. Solid steel and cast iron made for heavy tractor by comparison. It would spin going up hill, especially if the grass was damp. The "smooth" rib front tires stunk for hillside traction. The rears would slip going over root clumps and such without even leaving a mark. I have attempted to mow the same area with my neighbor's Poluan (42" deck, 19.5 hp Briggs, hydro). I now use a Cub Cadet 1862 or a 1863. (These tractors are lighter with thinner stamped frames and cast AL rearends.) I've used the 1863 with stock Cudet turf tires and with Carisle Turf Savers in front and bar lugs with wheel weights in the rear. They may not be perfect I'd take Carisle Turf Saver's over the tires any day. As for the rear, yeah bar lugs aren't as smooth riding but you get a whole more tractor. No more spining on wet grass and not leaving a mark. If it spins to much now there will be a mark before long. I just **** more of my weight to the uphill side that is spinning and way we go. (Sometimes are retry is needed when the grass is damp.) I can't get anywhere with the stock turf tires. I've used the bar lugs without the weights as well. The bar lugs helped over the turf tire but the lighter tractor needed more help. So now I leave the rear wheel weights on year round. (Weights and chains are required to offset the weight of the 45" 2-stage snow blower.) When it comes down to it I don't care what it looks like with weights on, I just want the grass cut. Depending on the size of wheel weights get a bigger deck and then you don't have the problem of the weights sticking out plus you'll get more done quicker. Point being tires can make a big difference and so does weight. Adding enough weight will make a bigger difference than tires alone. In some cases both maybe needed.

 

[arielredhunter]

I have an Agway LT 12-38. It was hopeless going downhill until I put chains on it. I shortend a set of snow chains I bought at a yard sale.

I read up to p5 then skipped to the end. I have plenty of roadside ditch to mow and a double mound system. I cut them side ways otherwise you're scalping the top and not cutting the bottom. If I cut up & down I need a "running" start to get up. No problems going down. I've had back peddling cases if I didn't start from a creep going down but no loss of control. I've used a '72 CubCadet 127 with 42" deck. It has the original turf rib tires in front and original turf rear tires. It has W6 front wheel weights in the rear wheels. (They fit flush and give a clean look.) They don't make like that any more. Solid steel and cast iron made for heavy tractor by comparison. It would spin going up hill, especially if the grass was damp. The "smooth" rib front tires stunk for hillside traction. The rears would slip going over root clumps and such without even leaving a mark. I have attempted to mow the same area with my neighbor's Poluan (42" deck, 19.5 hp Briggs, hydro). I now use a Cub Cadet 1862 or a 1863. (These tractors are lighter with thinner stamped frames and cast AL rearends.) I've used the 1863 with stock Cudet turf tires and with Carisle Turf Savers in front and bar lugs with wheel weights in the rear. They may not be perfect I'd take Carisle Turf Saver's over the tires any day. As for the rear, yeah bar lugs aren't as smooth riding but you get a whole more tractor. No more spining on wet grass and not leaving a mark. If it spins to much now there will be a mark before long. I just **** more of my weight to the uphill side that is spinning and way we go. (Sometimes are retry is needed when the grass is damp.) I can't get anywhere with the stock turf tires. I've used the bar lugs without the weights as well. The bar lugs helped over the turf tire but the lighter tractor needed more help. So now I leave the rear wheel weights on year round. (Weights and chains are required to offset the weight of the 45" 2-stage snow blower.) When it comes down to it I don't care what it looks like with weights on, I just want the grass cut. Depending on the size of wheel weights get a bigger deck and then you don't have the problem of the weights sticking out plus you'll get more done quicker. Point being tires can make a big difference and so does weight. Adding enough weight will make a bigger difference than tires alone. In some cases both maybe needed.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

While one can get some braking with front wheel drive engaged sometimes any braking with the front wheels can cause a loss of steering control in that you can not 'steer' with tires that are sliding. Free wheeling front wheels at least may give one some control in a sliding condition.

 

[JWR]

Looking at your one photo, the hill looks pretty steep. You might want to check some of the websites that compare degrees vs percent slope. A 30% slope can be handled easily by many 4wd lawn tractors. My Kubota Bx 2200 would be fine with that and I mow one that steep every week. A 30 degree slope is a much different situation. A 30 degree slope is nearing 60% and VERY few of the 4WD lawn machines can climb it. Most are hydrostatic and (even in low range) the hydrostatic will probably not pull a 30 degree slope regardless of traction. They are much more likely to hum than to pull the hill. But back to your basic issue -- if locking the differential works, use it. If the tires still slip, your only serious alternative is chains. And if you have to put on chains to mow some grass your are simply barking up the wrong hill. Smartest thing to do is stay off it if you cannot mow it in reasonable comfort and control. My opinion of course. Those are the only opinions I have -- mine !

 

[JimL1]

Hydrostatic transmissions, especially in the smaller lawn mowers, offer poor engine braking. I bought a JD D170 which lasted 5 minutes as it ran away downhill and jumped/rolled into a 4 foot deep ditch. It would not pull an empty JD trailer up a moderate slope at all. This is such a common problem that a guy sells transmission upgrades.

I had installed larger tires with more aggressive tread which the dealer argued lowered ground pressure and (despite them providing & installing the tires) told me after they were installed that they voided my warranty.

My Kubota BX26 runs fine on a very steep hill, but ONLY in 4WD. Never go on a hill when grass is wet/damp. It is impossible to go sideways on a steep grade of course. Stay in low and go slow.

So, bigger tires with aggressive tread may not work (which seems counter-intuitive) due to decreasing the ground pressure.

 

[Tool Maker]

Four weeks ago, I was going down my driveway from my sons house to my house. I have a little hydro drive tractor. I was pulling a trailer with a roll of wire in it. I usually never use the brakes, just the hydro. All of a sudden it jumped ahead and started gaining speed. It had jumped out of low range. I first tried to pull it down with the hydro, no luck then I hit the brake and my left rear tire started rolling on the rocks of the driveway. Then it started turning around to the left and started to tip up on it side. Egades I let up on the brake and it straightened up. By this time I was traveling way to fast. Maybe 15 miles an hour. I started looking for something to hit but all the trees were big solid Douglas firs. by this time I could see where the road went right and left and the big bank that dropped of into the trees below. That was it, I hit the brakes and as it turned to the left I dove off into the barrow ditch. I'm still hurting pretty bad and the tractor is destroyed and the Cat scans and exrays cost a fortune. So today I am putting double disk brakes on my other hydro tractor. I could be dead. Mac

 

[JWR]

My engine braking (with the Kubota BX2200 hydrostatic) is quite good so long as it stays in gear in low range. The brakes however are worthless. Worse yet, the brake pedal is about 3" above the "accelerate forward pedal" which is wonderful for creating disasters. I have started over a steep river bank, jammed on the brakes, caught the "forward pedal" with my heel and lurched forward. What saved me and the tractor was the front end loader jammed into brush and debris which was strong enough to hold the machine from going over the hill. Good brakes are worth a lot on any tractor and these small ones generally have very poor brakes.

 

[JimL1]

My experience is brakes on grass don't do anything but make the slide worse..... you basically have tires acting as skis.

 

[JimL1]

Agree the Kubota pedal is way too high and potentially a risk. I'm looking at the B29 which has far better controls.

 

[Don87]

Agree the Kubota pedal is way too high and potentially a risk. I'm looking at the B29 which has far better controls.

The new BX series has the brake pedal moved to the left side.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Mac I wish you well.

 

[Tool Maker]

Thank you. I am doing remarkable Mac

 

[stevem5215]

Mac, we need some pictures of the carnage.

This might be a good post to put into the safety forum too. Just to let others know how it can happen.

Steve

 

[Tool Maker]

The carnage to me is just about all healed up. The wreaked tractor is totally dismantled and on its way to be a small fork lift. How ever I will document the fork lift build. If it is a simple matter to put the pictures on here I will do that to. Mac