Well Water System Design

   / Well Water System Design #21  
Turnkey,

The pressure relief valve at the tank can be set just higher than the set pressure on the well pump. It just keeps the pump from dead heading or can relieve some pressure from the water heater if needed. The pressure relief at the water heater is beyond the cold water shutoff and is commonly set at 150 PSI. It's only job is to protect the water heater.

The multiple check valves, on the well pump discharge that comes up the casing, keeps any voids from happening. Water can only be "sucked" about 32'. If you use the well pump to pressurize the system and all faucets are turned off with no pressure at the faucets, the water can trickle back down the pipe past the foot valve and leave an open section of pipe with just a vacuum in it and no water. When the pump comes on it can slam a head of water against a closed valve. If there are multiple check valves there is no section longer, vertically, than 25 feet. So no voids. At that very low pressure, the diaphragm tank is closed and it may not be near the void, so it can't help with the hammer.






Some well guys want partially open ball valves on the riser too. I can't see doing that as I don't want a restriction on that pipe.

<snip>

??? You (and the OP) has a submerged pump, therefore there is no "suction" involved. Even with the old shallow well pumps the practical "lift" (suction) is about 26' max and that is at sea level, it decreases rapidly as altitude increases. The 32' is the theoretcal with no system loses.

Your 25" sections accomplish nothing as all it takes is one leaking area to have a vacuum in the system and lose any "suck" you need (none in the case of a submerged. All I can see you doing with those check valves is adding complication and things that can malfunction. All any well needs is one check valve at the bottom, a lot of people will put on at the top (near the tank) if the pump one begins to leak. There is some consideration for the "hammer" caused when the pump starts that long column of water moving but it is well cushioned by the air bubble in the pressure tank.

Partialy open ball valve on the riser? Another thing I never heard of and another thing that can malfuntion.

I wonder what the restriction is on your riser going through all those checkvalves.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #22  
:)If the OP has a submersible pump he'll not hear it. Unless he puts his ear to the tank.:D

Sounds like the OP was building on a slab. If so, with downhole pump, putting a large tank like jinman's in takes little space.:thumbsup: Don't need no well house or check valve above ground.:D

Simple layout and installation. Find lots like it in colder areas. Makes well work much easier.:D

Oh yes he can hear it. My submersible is about 100 ft from the house, pressure tank in the basement, well to house is black poly, enters house with short length of galv tranistions to copper. Definite hum when pump kicks in but not obtrusive and that has alerted me to leaks in the past. Dunno if having the tank no in hte house would change anything.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design
  • Thread Starter
#23  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?

What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?
 
   / Well Water System Design #24  
The one inch line would be fine.

The brass pitiless adapter is just that. It will be made of brass for corrosion reasons.

The pitiless adapter can be set at any depth you wish. Keep it below the frost line. In fact insist on it!

In cold country it's common to have them set at nine or ten feet.:thumbsup:
( it's easier to dig two feet than it is to dig down four feet to place the adapter )

Google pitiless adapter and water well completions. Lots of hits. Lots of pictures.

When living on an acreage we had a submersible pumping through a one in. Plastic line into an 85 gal. Tank. With my ear on the tank I could just barely hear a gurgle of water.:D
 
   / Well Water System Design #25  
Some well "installers" may not properly size the pump / motor arrangement and will install a ball valve they can throttle to prevent drawing too many amps on the pump motor.
 
   / Well Water System Design #26  
??? You (and the OP) has a submerged pump, therefore there is no "suction" involved. Even with the old shallow well pumps the practical "lift" (suction) is about 26' max and that is at sea level, it decreases rapidly as altitude increases. The 32' is the theoretcal with no system loses.

Your 25" sections accomplish nothing as all it takes is one leaking area to have a vacuum in the system and lose any "suck" you need (none in the case of a submerged. All I can see you doing with those check valves is adding complication and things that can malfunction. All any well needs is one check valve at the bottom, a lot of people will put on at the top (near the tank) if the pump one begins to leak. There is some consideration for the "hammer" caused when the pump starts that long column of water moving but it is well cushioned by the air bubble in the pressure tank.

Partialy open ball valve on the riser? Another thing I never heard of and another thing that can malfuntion.

I wonder what the restriction is on your riser going through all those checkvalves.

Harry K


You missed my point completely. Re read my part about suction.

When the well pump is off and all valves are closed up on top and the foot valve leaks, there indeed is suction. Or a vacuum up at the surface (this assuming the well pump is connected directly into the house plumbing) and can lead to an empty section of pipe high up in the well piping. In my case it didn't matter so much because the well discharge line goes into the open holding tank. This leads to a hammer if the pump comes on. This is why the check valves are recommended in deep wells, but it's not my recommendation for every system. I didn't invent this solution I only reported what was recommended by several well installers. And I did it on mine. My pump just fills my tank and then sits for days or weeks before coming on again. This is different than running every time a faucet is opened. Sometimes people are gone for weeks and their systems have time to leak back.

I didn't recommend a partially closed valve either. Please re-read my post. And by all means, set yours up the way that suits you. I only answered some questions and explained why I did what I did.

There are a lot of old fashioned and ill suited ways to deal with the numerous well design considerations. Sometimes I wonder if saving money is more important than doing a good job and sometimes I wonder if folks understand water dynamics. The partially closed valve theory makes me scratch my head too, as does the 1/4" line to hang the pump on. But through it all, wells seem to work pretty well. There are a lot of ways to do things.

I have actually designed and installed a complete system and used it for years. I built it to meet my needs. Those needs were low power usage at the well pump so it could run off my generator, the best reliability I could get, reserve water if the well pump failed and the best chance of retrieving the pump after years of hanging in the well.

As I mentioned, I dropped my pump and had to retrieve it. Those that recommend the cheap 1/4" poly or nylon line a are asking for trouble if they have to pull up 300 feet of pipe, a pump and a tangled mess of wire.

As far as poly pipe being suitable for domestic water use, it's been used in thousands of homes in the Bay Area for at least forty years with no ill affects. Before I used it I got the domestic water approval from the manufacturer and then went with the heavy wall, 200 PSI stuff. I like the idea of sliding it through a sleeve in concrete and being able to replace it if needed. Domestic PEX is another good solution. Simply look for the NSF-61 rating which means it has been tested and shown to not leach chemicals into the water.

By the way, the restriction in the check valves is about 2' of head each and I do understand what suction means.
 
   / Well Water System Design #27  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?


What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?

Dunno what part of the country you were in but ifyou get any frosty temps for very long in winter 2' sounds a bit shallow. Your local building dept can give you the official "frost" depth for your location. Insist that the pitless adapter and all pipes be layed below that depth.


1" is plenty for residential use (including lawn/garden irrigation) if the 'run' from the well is a reasonable distance. I'd consider uping to 1 1/2 if over about 500 ft.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #28  
You missed my point completely. Re read my part about suction.

When the well pump is off and all valves are closed up on top and the foot valve leaks, there indeed is suction. Or a vacuum up at the surface (this assuming the well pump is connected directly into the house plumbing) and can lead to an empty section of pipe high up in the well piping. In my case it didn't matter so much because the well discharge line goes into the open holding tank. This leads to a hammer if the pump comes on. This is why the check valves are recommended in deep wells, but it's not my recommendation for every system. I didn't invent this solution I only reported what was recommended by several well installers. And I did it on mine. My pump just fills my tank and then sits for days or weeks before coming on again. This is different than running every time a faucet is opened. Sometimes people are gone for weeks and their systems have time to leak back.

I didn't recommend a partially closed valve either. Please re-read my post. And by all means, set yours up the way that suits you. I only answered some questions and explained why I did what I did.

There are a lot of old fashioned and ill suited ways to deal with the numerous well design considerations. Sometimes I wonder if saving money is more important than doing a good job and sometimes I wonder if folks understand water dynamics. The partially closed valve theory makes me scratch my head too, as does the 1/4" line to hang the pump on. But through it all, wells seem to work pretty well. There are a lot of ways to do things.

I have actually designed and installed a complete system and used it for years. I built it to meet my needs. Those needs were low power usage at the well pump so it could run off my generator, the best reliability I could get, reserve water if the well pump failed and the best chance of retrieving the pump after years of hanging in the well.

As I mentioned, I dropped my pump and had to retrieve it. Those that recommend the cheap 1/4" poly or nylon line a are asking for trouble if they have to pull up 300 feet of pipe, a pump and a tangled mess of wire.

As far as poly pipe being suitable for domestic water use, it's been used in thousands of homes in the Bay Area for at least forty years with no ill affects. Before I used it I got the domestic water approval from the manufacturer and then went with the heavy wall, 200 PSI stuff. I like the idea of sliding it through a sleeve in concrete and being able to replace it if needed. Domestic PEX is another good solution. Simply look for the NSF-61 rating which means it has been tested and shown to not leach chemicals into the water.

By the way, the restriction in the check valves is about 2' of head each and I do understand what suction means.

There appears to be a misunderstanding somewhere. Your pump is buried in water - there can be no vacuum around it and thus no "suction" problem. Any vacuum/air in the pipe ABOVE the pump does not affect it at all, other than to add a bit more "cushion" for that hammer you are concerned with. In fact the entire pipe from the static level in the well to the tank and the tank itself can be totally empty and not affecdt operation, just as it didn't when you first turned on your system.

I, and others, do not see any purpose at all for all those checkvalves.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #29  
I was told by the well company that the water line for the in-well pump comes out of a brass pitless adapter which is installed generally 2 feet below grade. Then the, "yard line and burial cable are also installed in the same trench from well to house 18 to 24 inches and is usually 1" sch. 40 PVC."

Should I go up in size for the PVC water line? Maybe 1.5" or 2" or is that not necessary?

What did he mean by "brass pitless adapter"?



I see you didn't get a good answer to the "pitless adapter" question. It is a two-part brass plate with angled faces, one part goes throught the casing and attaches to the supply pipe to the house, the other goes on the end of the drop pipe, PUmp, wire,pipe is assembled and slid down well with the angled part of the pitless adapter sliding (hopefullyi with no problem) onto the other part. To remove pump, juist pull up on the drop pipe and it all comes off the pitless adapter.

Google "pitless adapter" for some pictures. Hard to spot but most of them are a "dovetail" sliding fit.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #31  
Harry,

I'll try again.

I'm not advocating the use of check valves. This is just an explanation as to why they are used when they are used, as far as I understand it.

Obviously, the pump is immersedand there is no suction on it's intake side. Let's get beyond that.

Now, imagine a system with the pump down in the water. The stand pipe to the surface is open and the distance to the surface from the standing water line is much farther than 30 feet, say 300 feet. We turn on the pump and water gushes out at the surface. Then we close a valve on the pipe at the surface and block the flow. Then we turn off the pump and what happens?

The atmospheric pressure down in the well is not sufficent to hold the column of water at 300' elevation. The water level in the pipe drops to about 30' above the water level and holds there.

The void in the pipe above the water is not air or a "cushion", as you mentioned. It's an empty vacuum.

Now we have about 270' of empty pipe. The key is "empty". No air. Not a cushion. This where the word suction was used in my previous blurb. A high vacuum area, if you will.

Now we turn on the pump and the water rushes up the pipe. Remember, no cushion, and slams into the closed valve. This caused an instataneous pressure rise that can break the pipe or just jar the whole system.

However, if there were check valves at every 25', there would not have been a void at all.

Again, I'm not saying they are needed in yours or any system. Each one is different and can be arranged in many ways.

The pressure tank is not necessarily useful in this case because the closed valves could be beyond or before it and the configuration can still cause a hammer. When there is this kind of vacuum, the diaphragm tank has zero volume because the bladder is pressed agains the connetion port. Sometimes the tank port is quite small and the tremendous pressure hit is more than it can handle to prevent a hammer.
Some systems can sit for months, unused, and this condition can gradually develop.

Do you see the difference between this scenario and the initial startup when the system is full of air? An air cushion vs an empty pipe? Not the same thing at all.
 
   / Well Water System Design #32  
I posted it once, I'll post it again, you should never install check valves every 25' in any submersible pump system. If you really want to install check valves, the mfg's suggest to do it every 200', not every 25' like suggested. I'm not even sure how you would install a check valve every 25' when pipe is either 20' or 21' in length, and with poly you want one single piece all the way to the pump if possible.

The reason is that if one single check valve in that line fails, it can cause water hammer. Multiple check valves give more opportunity for failure. In fact, if one single check valve in the column fails, more than likely the rest will fail soon after due to the water hammer effect coming from below. You compound the problem by adding more check valves.

The only check valve in the system should be installed just above the pump discharge or built into the pump itself. Good quality pumps, like Goulds, can have check valves that last 20+ years. If the check valve fails before the pump does, the pump needs to be pulled and the check valve replaced or repaired. I normally remove the built-in and install a MXF check valve that screws directly into the pump discharge and the drop pipe screws into it if I have a failure on a newer pump.

The exception to the checkvalve rule is on a system with an air maker installed, which uses a check-valve at the surface with a vacuum breaker and bleeder down in the well to make air to feed into a hydro-pneumatic tank.

Rope is more likely to become entangled with the pump and lock it in the well many times more than it is used pulling a pump out. Hang a pump on good quality pipe such as sch 80 or steel and you'll more than likely never have a problem. Even on a 4.5" casing the pump diameter is almost 4" (3.9" diameter) which doesn't leave but .25" on each side for something to wedge in there and lock it in place like chinese handcuffs. 4" wells are even tighter.

I have installed hundreds of submersible pumps, some have lasted 20+ years. Use good quality materials, take your time, and talk to your driller and see what works best for your area.

Good Luck.
 
   / Well Water System Design #33  
:)Just fix the bottom pump check. Solve all your problems as well

as keeping the pipe from collapsing.:)

Just how do you get 300 ft. Of vacuum.:confused:
 
   / Well Water System Design #34  
Harry,

I'll try again.

I'm not advocating the use of check valves. This is just an explanation as to why they are used when they are used, as far as I understand it.

Obviously, the pump is immersedand there is no suction on it's intake side. Let's get beyond that.

Now, imagine a system with the pump down in the water. The stand pipe to the surface is open and the distance to the surface from the standing water line is much farther than 30 feet, say 300 feet. We turn on the pump and water gushes out at the surface. Then we close a valve on the pipe at the surface and block the flow. Then we turn off the pump and what happens?

The atmospheric pressure down in the well is not sufficent to hold the column of water at 300' elevation. The water level in the pipe drops to about 30' above the water level and holds there.

The void in the pipe above the water is not air or a "cushion", as you mentioned. It's an empty vacuum.

Now we have about 270' of empty pipe. The key is "empty". No air. Not a cushion. This where the word suction was used in my previous blurb. A high vacuum area, if you will.

Now we turn on the pump and the water rushes up the pipe. Remember, no cushion, and slams into the closed valve. This caused an instataneous pressure rise that can break the pipe or just jar the whole system.

However, if there were check valves at every 25', there would not have been a void at all.

Again, I'm not saying they are needed in yours or any system. Each one is different and can be arranged in many ways.

The pressure tank is not necessarily useful in this case because the closed valves could be beyond or before it and the configuration can still cause a hammer. When there is this kind of vacuum, the diaphragm tank has zero volume because the bladder is pressed agains the connetion port. Sometimes the tank port is quite small and the tremendous pressure hit is more than it can handle to prevent a hammer.
Some systems can sit for months, unused, and this condition can gradually develop.

Do you see the difference between this scenario and the initial startup when the system is full of air? An air cushion vs an empty pipe? Not the same thing at all.



Okay, you dropped the "suction" which is what I have been on about. As for your 300' of empty pipe: How come you have a malfunctioning foot valve? That is what keeps the water in that 300' of piple, not atmospheric pressure. Also that "rush of water slamming into that valve: What valve? there is no need for any valve between the pump ( submersibles have one built in) and tank except perhaps a shut off that should always be open unless maintenance is being doen. Even if there _is_ a check valve, your 'sudden pressure spike would apply at it and all subsecquent ones.

Your system, do it how you want. I will add, though, that if a well diller/installer told me to put in multiple check valves I would be looking for a different installer.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #35  
:)Just fix the bottom pump check. Solve all your problems as well

as keeping the pipe from collapsing.:)

Just how do you get 300 ft. Of vacuum.:confused:

I was wondering the same thing.

Harry K
 
   / Well Water System Design #36  
Harry,

I'll try again.

I'm not advocating the use of check valves. This is just an explanation as to why they are used when they are used, as far as I understand it.

Obviously, the pump is immersedand there is no suction on it's intake side. Let's get beyond that.

Now, imagine a system with the pump down in the water. The stand pipe to the surface is open and the distance to the surface from the standing water line is much farther than 30 feet, say 300 feet. We turn on the pump and water gushes out at the surface. Then we close a valve on the pipe at the surface and block the flow. Then we turn off the pump and what happens?

The atmospheric pressure down in the well is not sufficent to hold the column of water at 300' elevation. The water level in the pipe drops to about 30' above the water level and holds there.

The void in the pipe above the water is not air or a "cushion", as you mentioned. It's an empty vacuum.

Now we have about 270' of empty pipe. The key is "empty". No air. Not a cushion. This where the word suction was used in my previous blurb. A high vacuum area, if you will.

Now we turn on the pump and the water rushes up the pipe. Remember, no cushion, and slams into the closed valve. This caused an instataneous pressure rise that can break the pipe or just jar the whole system.

However, if there were check valves at every 25', there would not have been a void at all.

Again, I'm not saying they are needed in yours or any system. Each one is different and can be arranged in many ways.

The pressure tank is not necessarily useful in this case because the closed valves could be beyond or before it and the configuration can still cause a hammer. When there is this kind of vacuum, the diaphragm tank has zero volume because the bladder is pressed agains the connetion port. Sometimes the tank port is quite small and the tremendous pressure hit is more than it can handle to prevent a hammer.
Some systems can sit for months, unused, and this condition can gradually develop.

Do you see the difference between this scenario and the initial startup when the system is full of air? An air cushion vs an empty pipe? Not the same thing at all.

I recommend you get out a physics book and do a little research.
 
   / Well Water System Design
  • Thread Starter
#38  
Spoke to the driller today. He said that he recommends a 10gpm pump with two 85 gallon pressure tanks with a sediment filter installed prior to the tanks. The main shutoff valve should be installed AFTER the pressure tanks. He said that 2-3 check valves will be installed in the system. The 1" PVC 40 sch pipe is more than adequate for my setup and according to him that 2' is more than deep for that area for freeze protection.The 1" PVC pipe would then transition into a PEX line that would come up through the slab.

He also recommended doing the well prior to breaking ground so that the construction crew can have on-site water for use in soil compaction and concrete work. He said that they can setup the well to run off of a generator with the pitiless adapter and hose spicket.
 
   / Well Water System Design #39  
I did a bit of googling for multiple check valves. Turned up one engineer who had written a paper recommending them but IIRC the article specified one for a 600 ft well. Reviews ofthe article by professional well drillers, installers were all negative.

Granted I didn't spend much time at the search so...

Harry K
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

SEMI AUTOMATIC QUICK-CHANGER FOR MINI EXCAVATOR (A58214)
SEMI AUTOMATIC...
UNUSED FUTURE 350 HYD BREAKER HAMMER (A52706)
UNUSED FUTURE 350...
500 BBL FRAC TANK (A58214)
500 BBL FRAC TANK...
2014 FREIGHTLINER 108SD CONCRETE MIXER TRUCK (A59823)
2014 FREIGHTLINER...
SKID STEER ATTACHMENT (A58214)
SKID STEER...
2023 RTVXG-850 SideKick (A56438)
2023 RTVXG-850...
 
Top