IH 460 wont start

[kbforester]

I've been having trouble for awhile now. Everything was running fine in July, but tore it down (gas tank, dash, throttle, etc) to pull out the power steering gear assembly because it was leaking heavily. Finally got the gear assembly back from my mechanic at the end of November, and after struggling got it to run for an afternoon in December. I haven't been able to start it since. I've tried to only work on it during the warmer days (40+) since I don't have a shop to work in.

-Turns over, but doesn't fire (at all).
- light grey smoke does come out the exhaust manifold (no exhaust pipe/muffler installed at the moment)
-Tank does have gas, gas is getting to the carb (after that I don't know, I'm scared to tinker with the carb)
-Battery is new

Things I've tried
Replace: spark plugs, spark plug wires, points, Coil, Resister, All the wiring (which I hope I didn't screw up, there by creating another problem, and covering up the fix of the old problem)

Could there be a wiring problem where the starter turns over fine but the plugs aren't getting spark?
The starter is obviously getting grounded, the coil is grounded, is there anything else?
I don't have the alternator wired yet. I figured I'd tackle that after this problem is fixed. It not being hooked up isn't causing a problem is it?
Could the timing be off? Like when I removed the distributor could I have screwed up the timing?

I regret trying to redo the wiring without the engine running, so I could change one thing at a time so I knew I didn't make a mistake. I'm a beginer when it comes to anything automotive, but I'm a real bonehead when it comes to electrical work.

Getting frustrated!

 

[ThomasH]

The basics of a gas engine are it takes compression (with valves that are working) so that it sucks in gas/air (requires working carb) and at the right time on the compression stroke the spark ignites the fuel mixture. So there are a number of things that come to mind:
1) Spark weak, non-existant, or timed incorrectly. Assuming that the points are gapped correctly and the condenser isn't shorted out, you should have a spark. The rotor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug wire terminal when the #1 cylinder is at TDC on a compression stroke. The rest of the plug wires should be sorted out to make sure the rest are in the order that they should be for that engine.
2) Fuel is not making it's way through the carburetor correctly and mixing with the incoming air. If the ignition system is working, then you can put a small amount of gas inside of the air cleaner in the intake pipe and then cranking the engine should get you something for 1-5 seconds. If the engine fires briefly, you know that you have a carb problem. I would send the carb to a carb rebuilder and get it boiled out and rebuilt.

Good luck!

 

[kbforester]

Thanks for the response Thomas. If I smell gas coming from exhaust manifold, is that a good indication that its a spark and not a fuel problem?

I looked in my shop manual and in order to check the timing (#1 cylinder at TDC) Id have to pull off the radiator to make sure the Camshaft pulley and the timing gear cover are alined. That's a whole lot of work for and old rusty tractor. Is there another way to check? The distributor shaft that rotates the rotor fit into a a long slot.... so there are only two ways install it, if I installed it wrong, would rotating the shaft 180 degrees potentially fix the problem? In other words, if the firing order is 153624, the only wrong way to install the rotor would be if it were trying to fire 624153 when the cylinders where doing the exact opposite. I might be in way over my head. At this point I would have it towed to the mechanic, but its inaccessible at this point in the winter.

I've tried using either in the air cleaner already. Didn't fire.

 

[SSdoxie]

Here is one way to find TDC without removing the timing cover:
Remove the spark plugs and take off the valve cover. Use a wrench on front of crankshaft and rotate the engine by hand until both rocker arms for #1 cylinder are setting level with each other (both valves closed). Use a stiff wire through the spark plug hole to feel top of the piston, then slowly rotate the engine both directions to find when piston is exact Top Center. This will give you TDC on compression stroke.

Have you checked to see if there is any spark at the plug?

 

[ThomasH]

Hi -

Yes, if you smell gas coming form the exhaust, it means that gas is getting into the engine. If there has been no sign of life then it is definitely an ignition problem. If it tried to start at the beginning of cranking, then you may have flooded it with too much gas from the carb. The way to tell if it is flooded is to unscrew a plug and see if it is wet with gas.

Assuming that your carb is not dumping so much gas in the engine that it is flooding (which is not too likely but possible), then I would concentrate on the distributor. DO NOT MESS WITH THE CAM TIMING! You do not need to look at cam timing unless someone worked on the engine and did the cam timing wrong.

As mentioned by SSdoxie, figure out where top dead center for #1 (the front cylinder) is. Slowly turn the engine over with a wrench or flex bar and socket, and watch the valve action for #1. You should see the intake valve close, and then about a half turn later (180 or so degrees) you will be at top dead center when the piston is at it's highest. Hopefully you can shine a light through the spark plug hole and see, but if not get a cheap TDC tool at Harbor Freight or eBay and use it to determine TDC. As a confirmation for TDC, you should see a mark on the harmonic balancer line up with a pointer or mark on the front of the engine.

Drop the distributor into place. Remove the cap. Note where the rotor is pointing. If it is pointing close to where the #1 wire is attached, you arre good. If not, does pulling it out, turning the rotor 180 degrees, and dropping it back in place get you closer help? If not, don't sweat it, put it in place as close as you can, rotate the distributor to point to a terminal on the cap, and that becomes #1. If the firing order is 153624, then the wires would be 53624 clockwise the rest of the way around the distributor cap.

Get a charger on the battery - hopefully one that puts out 50+ amps and can help to run the starter.

Take a piece of chalk and chalk up the timing marks on the crankshaft harmonic balancer and pointer so they are easier to see.

Hook up a timing light, hopefully an inductive one that just clamps around the #1 plug and get someone to turn the key to start while you watch the spark on the crankshaft timing marks to see where it is firing. Typical gas engines fire a few degrees before TDC, typically 4-8 degrees, but check your manual as they should have the spec there.

BTW - I *always* use the excuse of working on equipment as a reason to buy tools, but that's just me. So you should own a TDC stop and inductive timing tool when doing this work. (grin)

Good luck!

 

[Soundguy]

get a can of carb cleaner and start fluid.

pull plugs.. spray celan with carb cleaner.. dry with a aper towel. reinsert.

remove air tube to carb... set throttle to mid way.

run a hot wire from battery to primary of ignition coil.. put her in neutal and block clutch.. double check.

spin her over with 1 plug out and check for spark. plug threads need to be touching block or head.. hookup with gator clips if needed.

if you hve sparlk.. put it ion.. crank over and give it some start fluid into carb.. see if she cranks on start fluid.. post back

 

[kbforester]

I had tried to check the spark plugs last week, but it didn't occur to me that they had to be grounded :ashamed: I'll give that a shot.

The plugs are new (fresh out of the box).

Tried start fluid, didn't work

So after I check to see if their is spark on them, I'll check the timing. In order to take off the valve cover, I have to take off all the sheet metal, gas tank, dash, and throttle again. :mur: Hopefully tomorrow's temps get higher than 6 degrees out.

Before I do, I might post a picture to show how I've got my electrical hooked up (coil, resistor, etc) maybe I've made a mistake there someone can point out. Everyone likes pictures... right????

 

[Soundguy]

if it did not even 'pop' on start fluid.. you have no spark.

hot wire the coil. bat to coil primary and check spark...

 

[kbforester]

Ok, so tried testing the spark plugs... no go. No spark. I have one idea that doesn't make complete sense, but I though I would check back here before I tried anything.I have the resistor hooked up through the push button switch, so the plugs might not be getting any spark if the button isn't being pushed???? But even still, while I'm pushing it, I don't get a spark either. So I have no idea what it could be. Also, I'll ask again. Do I need the alternator hooked up to make it start? I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask again.

Here are pictures of anything, if you see anything odd that sticks out, please say so. Please excuse the rough wiring, most of the crampon connections that were there came off because I've been pulling everything off to check for different problems, and trying different things.

Also note the wiring diagram, with what I'm using for wire colors, and what "parts" I don't have.

 

[KubotaSam]

Make a Jumper wire with an alligator clip on each end. Remove all wires from the coil + side. Tie them back or tape the ends so they can't touch any thing. Connect the jumper wire between the + terminal of the battery and the + terminal of the coil. Pull the end of the coil wire (thick black wire like spark plug wire) from the center of the distributor and hold it about 1/4 inch from a clean metal surface on the engine. Crank engine and check for a spark that will jump. If no spark you have a problem with your coil or the points & condenser or wiring between them. If it does spark the put coil wire back into center of distributor and repeat spark check at spark plugs. If no spark at plugs then you have a problem with the distributor rotor or cap. If you have spark then put the spark plugs back into engine and try to start. It it does not start then you have either an ignition timing problem or a fuel or compression problem.

 

[Soundguy]

i already told you to simply hotwire the coil in post #8

if you aren't going to follow advice.. there's no point in continuing this diagnostic....

I can't help you if you won't follow thru....

Ok, so tried testing the spark plugs... no go. No spark. I have one idea that doesn't make complete sense, but I though I would check back here before I tried anything.I have the resistor hooked up through the push button switch, so the plugs might not be getting any spark if the button isn't being pushed???? But even still, while I'm pushing it, I don't get a spark either. So I have no idea what it could be. Also, I'll ask again. Do I need the alternator hooked up to make it start? I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask again.

Here are pictures of anything, if you see anything odd that sticks out, please say so. Please excuse the rough wiring, most of the crampon connections that were there came off because I've been pulling everything off to check for different problems, and trying different things. View attachment 298594View attachment 298596View attachment 298597View attachment 298598View attachment 298599View attachment 298600

Also note the wiring diagram, with what I'm using for wire colors, and what "parts" I don't have.

 

[kbforester]

i already told you to simply hotwire the coil in post #8

if you aren't going to follow advice.. there's no point in continuing this diagnostic....

I can't help you if you won't follow thru....

Sorry sound guy, I'm flustered so I didn't make it clear in my posts (after your post #8), that I have tried everyone's advice thus far to no avail. I hot wired it as you said, and I still got no spark. I thank you all for helping out, and I will try to be more complete in my own re-posts in the future.

 

[Soundguy]

if you hot wired the coil and got no spark, then you need to do the following.

start with hot wired coil.

check voltage with a meter on the wire to t e coil.. should be battery volts. check the wire leaving the coil going to t he distrib points. it should be bat volts points open, and 0 closed. roll engine over to test.

if it shows 0 all the time.. check the condensor, it may be shorted.. or check the feedthru insulator it may be shorted to the distrib housing.

if it shows bat volts the entire time, check the points to ensure they are gapped properly and can close, and check the smal wire or metal tab running from feedtrhu insulator over to the points.. sometimes it is a copepr flat , uninsulated wire and cracks from vibration.

if no help.

unhook coil from distrib..

use a test lamp from battery to side of distrib and roll engine over.. lamp should BLINK.

if lamp off.. then no ground thru points or wire broke in distrib.

if lamp stays on, something is shorted at points hinge, feedthru insulator, wire in distrib, condensor, or on spot on the breaker plate that SHOULD be isolated.

post back

 

[kbforester]

Make a Jumper wire with an alligator clip on each end. Remove all wires from the coil + side. Tie them back or tape the ends so they can't touch any thing. Connect the jumper wire between the + terminal of the battery and the + terminal of the coil. Pull the end of the coil wire (thick black wire like spark plug wire) from the center of the distributor and hold it about 1/4 inch from a clean metal surface on the engine. Crank engine and check for a spark that will jump.

Ok, so I tried this while I was outside, and I couldn't see any spark, but by chance I ended up touching the end of the wire while I touched it to metal, and shocked myself. So by curiosity, I brought the battery and the coil down in the basement with the lights off, and I could see spark. Is it supposed to be that weak? And same for the plugs? If so, the plugs might be getting spark.

Another side question... the IH 460 came as a factory 12v system, but when I ordered the new coil it had "universal 6 volt" on the side and of course it came with the resistor. Does the hotwire pass through the resistor first, then go to the coil? Or doesn't it matter at the moment? Because right now, and according to the wiring diagram, it looks like electricity can bypass the resister. I don't know what I'm talking about though

 

[kbforester]

if you hot wired the coil and got no spark, then you need to do the following.

start with hot wired coil.

check voltage with a meter on the wire to t e coil.. should be battery volts. check the wire leaving the coil going to t he distrib points. it should be bat volts points open, and 0 closed. roll engine over to test.

if it shows 0 all the time.. check the condensor, it may be shorted.. or check the feedthru insulator it may be shorted to the distrib housing.

if it shows bat volts the entire time, check the points to ensure they are gapped properly and can close, and check the smal wire or metal tab running from feedtrhu insulator over to the points.. sometimes it is a copepr flat , uninsulated wire and cracks from vibration.

if no help.

unhook coil from distrib..

use a test lamp from battery to side of distrib and roll engine over.. lamp should BLINK.

if lamp off.. then no ground thru points or wire broke in distrib.

if lamp stays on, something is shorted at points hinge, feedthru insulator, wire in distrib, condensor, or on spot on the breaker plate that SHOULD be isolated.

post back

Ok SoundGuy, I'll give this a shot as soon. I've got the battery on the charger again.

 

[Soundguy]

for testing.. bypass the resistor.

in practice.. loose the resistor and the stupid 6v coil and get a real 12v coil...

 

[kevinj]

i already told you to simply hotwire the coil in post #8

if you aren't going to follow advice.. there's no point in continuing this diagnostic....

I can't help you if you won't follow thru....

Soundguy,

Look at the points, they look open to me and the block is between the lobes. It will not spark that way.

I think he needs to back to basics and start over with the simple stuff.

 

[Soundguy]

which is why i told him how to use a test lamp.. and or check voltages. that will tell him if his points are closed/shorted.. or too wide / open.

the info's all there waiting for him...

 

[kevinj]

which is why i told him how to use a test lamp.. and or check voltages. that will tell him if his points are closed/shorted.. or too wide / open.

the info's all there waiting for him...

You put out plenty of info, just wanted to be sure the point issue was noted. I have seen many people mess up the point settings.

 

[Soundguy]

the 'test lamp' test definatively tells you about the points state... it's a no brainer...