Block heater

landedakioti · Dec 4, 2012

If i put in a block heater will it void my warranty? Dk40se it has a hard time starting in cold

Coyote machine · Dec 5, 2012

No. Mine came with a dealer installed aftermarket block heater. Don't remember the brand name- maybe Kat's??
Your glow plug circuit may not be working properly- how cold has it been in Maine that it won't start easily after glowing it?

kiotiken · Dec 5, 2012

I agree with CM, it's not cold enough to be having issues starting yet. As I said in your other thread, if it doesn't start perfectly in this weather, there's an issue. I know your history with your first dealer and the difficulty you'd have getting the tractor to a different dealer, but it may come down to that.

Mine came with a dealer installed lower rad heater. I've seen posts on the Bobcat side about getting a real block heater, but to my knowledge, there isn't one available through Kioti. CM, is yours an actual block heater or a lower rad hose heater?

landedakioti · Dec 5, 2012

The day that i had issues was about 20 out side. Did the glow plugs for times final started let warm up and shut it off then tried to start again it would stall after draining my diesel and cutting it 50/50 diesel and k1 starts fine but its be warm the last couple of days. On the farm all the tractor's had block heaters . I read a form that kioti will void warranty if you have one?

Buckgnarly · Dec 5, 2012

The two dealers I talked to said it would not void warranty, but dealers can differ, so be aware.....have you checked your glowplug situation? Mine were not even connected when delivered. Hiw many hours on the tractor?

kiotiken · Dec 5, 2012

I read that post too, but I don't believe it. I didn't ask for a lower rad hose heater to be installed, nor did I pay extra for it, my tractor simply showed up with it installed. My dealer does this with every tractor they sell, including the CK30 I bought from them a couple years ago.

Now, a lower rad hose heater isn't a block heater, although I find it works very well. If there was ever a warranty issue, it could simply be remove and there'd be no evidence that it was ever there. If you're going to lose sleep at night because of it, I'd suggest you go that route over the block heater option that Wallace provided in the other thread. Otherwise, nothing is as good as a true block heater.

Now, the 20's F is not very cold. So far this year, I've started my DK45 at -10C or 14F without using the heater. Last winter I started my CK30 in the -30C range or -22F and below by using my lower rad hose heater. I've never used the glow plugs for more than one cycle to start, but what I will sometimes do when it's REALLY cold, is manually turn the key when it first starts and cycle the glow plugs then. It takes the engine from running rough to nice and smooth very quickly.

So, if at 20F you're having to cycle the glow plugs 4 times to get it started, you've got something wrong and I doubt a block heater is going to fix that, it's more likely a glow plug issue.

Phil48 · Dec 5, 2012

The block heater I got came from the dealer. Works just fine with a timer, but you really need it when it is very cold. I wonder if I remember correctly in the instruction Manuel if there is not sometime about keeping the glow plugs "on" after the engine being fire up and keeping your key counter clock wise so that the glow plug will still be on for a few extra seconds? That might help for cold start up...

Phil

Coyote machine · Dec 5, 2012

kiotiken said:
I agree with CM, it's not cold enough to be having issues starting yet. As I said in your other thread, if it doesn't start perfectly in this weather, there's an issue. I know your history with your first dealer and the difficulty you'd have getting the tractor to a different dealer, but it may come down to that.

Mine came with a dealer installed lower rad heater. I've seen posts on the Bobcat side about getting a real block heater, but to my knowledge, there isn't one available through Kioti. CM, is yours an actual block heater or a lower rad hose heater?

I have a (freeze plug located) block heater, as already stated

; and I checked with my selling dealer, he says mine is probably a Kats brand, and he is currently selling Tisco brand heaters. They sell what's available and best priced at a particular time.
I've never used mine to date, my tractor relaxes in a radiant floor heated barn...:dance1:
BTW,
A block heater isn't going to void any warranty; it's not up to the individual dealers to dictate warranty issues, its either written into the factory warranty papers or it isn't. Case closed.:thumbsup:

Buckgnarly · Dec 5, 2012

Coyote machine said:
I have a (freeze plug located) block heater, as already stated; and I checked with my selling dealer, he says mine is probably a Kats brand, and he is currently selling Tisco brand heaters. They sell what's available and best priced at a particular time.
I've never used mine to date, my tractor relaxes in a radiant floor heated barn...:dance1:
BTW,
A block heater isn't going to void any warranty; it's not up to the individual dealers to dictate warranty issues, its either written into the factory warranty papers or it isn't. Case closed.:thumbsup:

If the dealer finds an authorized modification causes a component to fail, they can void the warranty......that said, only thing a blockheater could really ruin would be if it leaked......they cannot void a fuel issue or transmission for example because of a blockheater.

Coyote machine · Dec 5, 2012

Buckgnarly said:
If the dealer finds an authorized modification causes a component to fail, they can void the warranty......that said, only thing a blockheater could really ruin would be if it leaked......they cannot void a fuel issue or transmission for example because of a blockheater.

For purposes of clarity and not having misleading or incorrect info out to TBN members: Actually no. The dealer's don't 'void' warranty claims- the only thing that can render denial of a claim for a particular part replacement/ repair under the manufacturer's warranty is what is stated in the contract's boilerplate.
Kioti states exclusions for implements such as NON -Kioti branded backhoes and brush-hogs can cause warranty claims to be denied if damage is caused by the implement. Thus one would have to look to the aftermarket manufacturer for recourse, if the implement damaged the tractor.
These issues have been discussed to death on the attachments forum.
Legally binding contracts/warranties which come with tractors, cars, etc. are exclusionary. They tell one what the manufacturer will cover and in most instances what it WONT cover during warranty duration.
Unless one installs a block heater incorrectly and it causes all the anti-freeze to leak out and the block to crack the likelihood of a dealer asking corporate to deny a claim because of a block heater is less than zero.
It's not to say some dealer's won't tell their customers that they have the power to deny claims themselves, but its not what someone says- it's what the contract states that rules.
One might have to get a lawyer involved these days in some rare circumstances, but anyone's mileage can vary when dealing with a huge corporate giant like Kioti/Daedong.
Block heater= no brainer. Install one at will and verify no leaks.

landedakioti · Dec 5, 2012

I thinking i mitt have to bring it to the dealer to see if my glow plugs and the timer is working right. Then i was going to see if they would install a block heater.

Buckgnarly · Dec 5, 2012

Coyote machine said:
For purposes of clarity and not having misleading or incorrect info out to TBN members: Actually no. The dealer's don't 'void' warranty claims- the only thing that can render denial of a claim for a particular part replacement/ repair under the manufacturer's warranty is what is stated in the contract's boilerplate.
Kioti states exclusions for implements such as NON -Kioti branded backhoes and brush-hogs can cause warranty claims to be denied if damage is caused by the implement. Thus one would have to look to the aftermarket manufacturer for recourse, if the implement damaged the tractor.
These issues have been discussed to death on the attachments forum.
Legally binding contracts/warranties which come with tractors, cars, etc. are exclusionary. They tell one what the manufacturer will cover and in most instances what it WONT cover during warranty duration.
Unless one installs a block heater incorrectly and it causes all the anti-freeze to leak out and the block to crack the likelihood of a dealer asking corporate to deny a claim because of a block heater is less than zero.
It's not to say some dealer's won't tell their customers that they have the power to deny claims themselves, but its not what someone says- it's what the contract states that rules.
One might have to get a lawyer involved these days in some rare circumstances, but anyone's mileage can vary when dealing with a huge corporate giant like Kioti/Daedong.
Block heater= no brainer. Install one at will and verify no leaks.

The way i read your post is that there is no way Kioti will void warranty for things you do on your tractor, excuse me if I misunderstood. The fact is if something you ADD does casue a related component fail, you MAY not get covered by factory warranty. For example, you can't add a turbo to the engine and expect Kioti to cover any damage that may occur as a result of your work.

I was strictly speaking engine/drivetrain, nothing about implements. I simply meant that if you mess up the install of some things, you may not get the response you want from a dealer OR corporate.

I'm assuming this is like auto warranty work......Kioti Corp is going to pay the dealer for warranty work, and if the dealer is suspect as to whether or not they are going to get paid, no way they are doing the work until Kioti Corp approves it.

Coyote machine · Dec 5, 2012

Buckgnarly said:
The way i read your post is that there is no way Kioti will void warranty for things you do on your tractor, excuse me if I misunderstood. The fact is if something you ADD does casue a related component fail, you MAY not get covered by factory warranty. For example, you can't add a turbo to the engine and expect Kioti to cover any damage that may occur as a result of your work.

I was strictly speaking engine/drivetrain, nothing about implements. I simply meant that if you mess up the install of some things, you may not get the response you want from a dealer OR corporate.

I'm assuming this is like auto warranty work......Kioti Corp is going to pay the dealer for warranty work, and if the dealer is suspect as to whether or not they are going to get paid, no way they are doing the work until Kioti Corp approves it.

I wasn't speaking about you specifically as far as understanding the situation; just trying to make sure those who read our posts on TBN understand that the factory warranty is not going to be denied by a dealer, or Kioti corporate unless something like an implement made by a company other than Kioti branded implements does damage. (Exclusionary clauses).
To the best of my knowledge, Kioti does not state in their warranty paperwork that an aftermarket branded block heater can or will allow them to void a users warranty claim(s). If something ISN"T excluded its included, (allowed).
Your example of: adding a turbo MAY not get covered by Kioti for any damage it causes, is probably accurate BUT denying a specific cause and effect, turbo blew up engine, is NOT the same as voiding the manufacturers warranty.
These situations can get tricky, where a dealer can throw out statements about what they can and can't do; and certainly they have influence over what corporate decides, based largely on what the dealer conveys to corporate about a particular situation. Therein lies the value or not depending on specifics of the boilerplate legalese. Theoretically, it protects us as consumers, but that sword can cut both ways. The contract limits our scope of claims and also limits the corporation from abuse of us, the buyer, assuming we both do our part as stated in the contract.
Thanks for your input.

seacap04 · Dec 6, 2012

Landedakioti, I do not think your glow plug circuit is working. I have similar issues on cold start and it does not matter if it is 80F or 15F if starts rough and smokes a lot for a little bit when first started. Sometimes It may take several cycles before it starts. This I am convinced is the fuel shut off solenoid. No smoke from exhaust, no fuel going to cylinders. In a coupe fo days my shop should be clear of paying projects and I plan to bring my tractor in and go through the glow plug circuit. If you can wait I will post what I did and how I fixed it. You are still under warranty, but getting to a dealer is a hassle.

Block heater: I have never used one on my personel stuff. I really don't know why, because it really does help the engine with starting and longevity. I operate vessels in the northeast and big diesels last longer when you have oil pressure in 1 or 2 seconds rather than 10 or 15 seconds after start. Older diesels had a pressure switch that when you hit start button an aux. pump would start and when oil pressure got up to 5-10 psi start curcuit would engage. I do not see this on new EPA certified engines. I can not imagine what oil pressure has to do with air pollution. I degress, i have had boats with both hose heaters and freeze plug heaters. They both work fine and I could not recomm
end one over the other and they do make a difference.

landedakioti · Dec 6, 2012

seacap04 said:
Landedakioti, I do not think your glow plug circuit is working. I have similar issues on cold start and it does not matter if it is 80F or 15F if starts rough and smokes a lot for a little bit when first started. Sometimes It may take several cycles before it starts. This I am convinced is the fuel shut off solenoid. No smoke from exhaust, no fuel going to cylinders. In a coupe fo days my shop should be clear of paying projects and I plan to bring my tractor in and go through the glow plug circuit. If you can wait I will post what I did and how I fixed it. You are still under warranty, but getting to a dealer is a hassle.

Block heater: I have never used one on my personel stuff. I really don't know why, because it really does help the engine with starting and longevity. I operate vessels in the northeast and big diesels last longer when you have oil pressure in 1 or 2 seconds rather than 10 or 15 seconds after start. Older diesels had a pressure switch that when you hit start button an aux. pump would start and when oil pressure got up to 5-10 psi start curcuit would engage. I do not see this on new EPA certified engines. I can not imagine what oil pressure has to do with air pollution. I degress, i have had boats with both hose heaters and freeze plug heaters. They both work fine and I could not recomm
end one over the other and they do make a difference.

That would be great. I just want it to work good i need it to finish pulling wood for people and when it snow to clean driveways for some elderly that can't afford to get plowed out. I am trying to also raise funds for kanuwodi art retreat so i can buy toys to fill the bucket and need to buy a santa suit to drive the town office with the toys to give to kids.

seacap04 · Dec 6, 2012

You are something else. We will try our best to make sure you succeed.

landedakioti · Dec 6, 2012

seacap04 said:
You are something else. We will try our best to make sure you succeed.

You are great kind sir. For helping me figure it out.

seacap04 · Dec 8, 2012

Landedakioti, I went through my glowplug curcuit today. I will post pics and complete info tomorrow. Quick info: I used an infrared Temp probe to see If I could detect heat rise at 1st plug in curcuit on back end of engine. I had heat rise, so relays and timer working. Next took loader, hood, and other stuff off and looked under rubber boot where curcuit connects to glowplug buss bar. Real bad corrosion and signs of high heat, back side of rubber boot melted. Took each plug out and tested. They all heated up. I do not know how much electrical current was comsumed by bad connection, but I would think a good percentage. Of course it is going to be warm for the next couple of days, but I think I solved my problem. This was an involved repair with twisted off glowplug terminal, gumped repairs till I can get proper repair parts, and removing tractor parts for excess. Hope this helps for now

landedakioti · Dec 8, 2012

seacap04 said:
Landedakioti, I went through my glowplug curcuit today. I will post pics and complete info tomorrow. Quick info: I used an infrared Temp probe to see If I could detect heat rise at 1st plug in curcuit on back end of engine. I had heat rise, so relays and timer working. Next took loader, hood, and other stuff off and looked under rubber boot where curcuit connects to glowplug buss bar. Real bad corrosion and signs of high heat, back side of rubber boot melted. Took each plug out and tested. They all heated up. I do not know how much electrical current was comsumed by bad connection, but I would think a good percentage. Of course it is going to be warm for the next couple of days, but I think I solved my problem. This was an involved repair with twisted off glowplug terminal, gumped repairs till I can get proper repair parts, and removing tractor parts for excess. Hope this helps for now

Thanks i will check it out sunday or monday. Today i'm doing a holiday sale at Maine college of art in portland. Hoping to raise funds to buy gifts to fill my bucket up on the tractor and bring to the town for kids. I know part of sunday i'm hanging lights. It will be fun to take the loader off i just have remember to put the support legs back they make to much noise that i can't hear the engine. I glad for all the help. I look forward in the seeing your pic.

Dingo Man · Dec 8, 2012

Landed, for what it is worth I was told by Whittemores and Sons a heater for my DK40 was not needed. Chad told me " If your tractor does not fire right up even in really cold weather, they would come out and install a heater for free". This will be my first winter so we will see. One thing I did do at the suggestion of another member here, I bought some Howes Diesel Treat fuel treatment. You should look into it especially where we live. Tractor Supply carries it.