Plumbing, ditching, sewer lines and pipe inspection analysis

[newbury]

Background:
I've a house I've owned since 1978 and been renting out since 1984.
It's had it's sewer lines "cleaned out" 4 times since 1978.
The first two times, about 1979 and 2000, were when the sewer was REAL slow to drain, the guys complained about roots, probably breaking into the lines. The second two times were this year, when the sewer backed up, with the same root complaints from the plumber. So I decided to get a video pipe insspection to see how bad it was.
Bad news from the plumber who did the cleanings this year. Breaks in 4 places with lots of root intrusion, requireing the entire line being dug up and replaced.
And I'm thinking "backhoe rental and seat time". And he's talking 5 figure expenditure.

Then I fnally get a look at the videos.

The most I can see is some pitting, either in the stuff built up in the lines or perhaps in 2 places in the actual pipe. I've looked at a few videos on you-tube, Trenchless Replacement Specialist Demo Video Part 1.mpg - YouTube, they show cracks, root hairs, broken pipes. They all make my videos look like my pipes have no problem.

So before I start the big dig does anyone have links to more sewer line pipe inspection videos?

I'm thinking a little that the guy who cleaned out the pipes twice this year did a poor job the first time and is looking to also clean my wallet.

 

[Paddy]

newbury,

saw the vid. cool system but I'd think way over kill for a simple line running to the street. I'd just replace the line with PVC. I'd call around to trenching guys and ask if they can cut a trench wide enough for a 4" sewer line. A bucket dug trench is such a mess. Tricky part is to find where at the street your line is located. At the house you should know by looking in the crawspace? In your photo I see a backhoe, why rent?

 

[Rock knocker]

I didn't watch the video because of server issues.

Many times they rooter the side sewer before they make a inspection video, so you have to really know what you are looking at to know whether you have a problem or not. I would not so readily accuse the contractor of doing a poor job earlier this year, it is even more likely that the roots are fast growing, and your side sewer is decomposing or otherwise failing.

The problem with lining, is the you must expose the pipe all the way to the sanitary connection with the city, which will involve digging up the sidewalks and the street. Another alternative is to fully replace the pipe on your property with ABS/PVC, and then connect back to the existing concrete, clay or cast for the final run across the right of way. This would be cheaper because it would allow you to do much of the work, and would also likely get the pipe away from the majority of the roots, which are most commonly found in yards.

If the pipe is failing because of street trees or road pressure, better to spend the money.

 

[sdkubota]

I installed sewer lines for over a decade and have been an professional engineer for 22 years. First, generally any work on a sewer system needs to be done by a licensed sewer contractor...check your local codes. Second, prior to videotaping sewer lines they are normally cleaned (knived) to remove any roots or debree that would restrict the video view and camera travel. Roots are a big problem ad chemicals, copper wire, etc. do not work. Once they are cut they grow back with an vengence and a source of water and nutrients are what they crave. Your line needs to be re-installed including proper installation and grade. Let a licensed contractor do it or you will probably end up doing it again. Third, installation of underground utilities has one of the highest mortality rates from any profession. Working in a ditch is VERY dangerous if you are not familiar to soil types, how it behaves, etc. Is it really worth dying over to save a few bucks that probably really won't be saved?

 

[zzvyb6]

You didn't mention what the line material was. I owned a house in Ann Arbor where the entire section of the city sewers were orangeburg tile (Cardboard wrapped in tar). When you had a break or root intrusion, the cutting knives for cleaning sheared the pipes into missing sections and the lines collapsed.

I just had a barn line repaired by pushing a slightly smaller pipe inside the older one. Worked perfectly.

 

[newbury]

Thanks -
They had cleaned the line about a month earlier. I was primarily asking

So before I start the big dig does anyone have links to more sewer line pipe inspection videos?

so I could compare it to my video.
I know I'd have to have a pro do the repair if it's needed, but looking at my video - which I did not post and is about 300mb - I couldn't see any blockage, breaks, or roots, not even invading root hairs.

 

[sdkubota]

Thanks -
They had cleaned the line about a month earlier. I was primarily asking so I could compare it to my video.
I know I'd have to have a pro do the repair if it's needed, but looking at my video - which I did not post and is about 300mb - I couldn't see any blockage, breaks, or roots, not even invading root hairs.

I have spent hours viewing sewer videos and they will put you to sleep. You probably should be seeing cut roots if that is the problem. What type of pipe is it? Orangeberg hasn't been installed for a long time. Clay pipes are more prone to root intrustion and joints are every 4 or 5 feet. Could you see any problems with the pipe grade itself? Low flow toilets cause a lot of blockages as there isn't enough water to carry the waste. A proper functioning sewer pipe should give you zero trouble providing there is adequate grade and the pipe was installed correctly.

 

[radioman]

many places do require a licensed sewer plumber. There is no way around this legally. I had a problem at my rental house as well, I dug it up myself to see what is really the problem, but had to get a professional in do "do the **** install" as per local code. What I am getting at - with sewer to city hookup- its just as easy/cheap to let them do the work, allthough I have a backhoe and quite capable doing the work myself -- I just could not win with the local zoning code ...:thumbdown:

 

[sdkubota]

If you are over 6' deep it requires a trench box which normally weighs around 10,000 lbs... You could also use trench jacks which aren't cheap. I would hate to count the number of people around my area that have lost their lives to trench cave-ins. I have had a handfull of close calls even using all the OSHA safety equipment.

 

[Qapla]

If your line is presently clear/clean and you have a clean-out facing the street connection and the existing line is NOT metal, you could send a metal fish tape through the line to the city connection and use a line locator (many irrigation guys have them) to locate where your line runs before you dig. There could be a wire running there already if it was required when it was installed - but, as old as the house sounds, probably not.

 

[mrmikey]

There was an episode of This Old House a few months back with a somewhat sililar problem. They had a system of inserting a sock impregnated with fiberglas resin into the existing pipe, inflating a pipe inside this one and after the resin sets, you've got a new pipe. Mind you that was a simple explanation but it'd be worthwhile looking into. I just forund a link Formadrain No-Dig Sewer Pipe Repair Technology - Cured in Place Liner, CIPP, Trenchless Technology ...Mike

 

[sdkubota]

There was an episode of This Old House a few months back with a somewhat sililar problem. They had a system of inserting a sock impregnated with fiberglas resin into the existing pipe, inflating a pipe inside this one and after the resin sets, you've got a new pipe. Mind you that was a simple explanation but it'd be worthwhile looking into. I just forund a link Formadrain No-Dig Sewer Pipe Repair Technology - Cured in Place Liner, CIPP, Trenchless Technology ...Mike

If the alignment is good and the pipe is fairly sound this is an alternative. However, it will probably cost more then replacing the line by open cutting.

 

[newbury]

If the alignment is good and the pipe is fairly sound this is an alternative. However, it will probably cost more then replacing the line by open cutting.

There are several "trenchless repair" companies. Their advantages are in no trench, no tree disturbance, lower labor cost. In my area, Fairfax County, VA, the unemployment rate is down to 4%, Unemployment by County in Virginia, so cheap labor is NOT available.

 

[sdkubota]

There are several "trenchless repair" companies. Their advantages are in no trench, no tree disturbance, lower labor cost. In my area, Fairfax County, VA, the unemployment rate is down to 4%, Unemployment by County in Virginia, so cheap labor is NOT available.

It isn't because of cheap labor. Lining pipe takes some specialized equipment to insert the "sock" then inject heated water or steam to set the adhesive until cured. The liner is almost like a fiberglass shell when completed. When doing large diameter projects with thousands of feet it makes it worth their while and you can get competitive pricing. To mobilize to do a single service will carry with it a lot of mobilization fees. It would be worth looking in to and I would be interested in how the price compares to open cutting. If you open cut, make sure they install a good quality rubber gasketed pipe ASTM 3034, Scd 35.

 

[Rock knocker]

If you open cut, make sure they install a good quality rubber gasketed pipe ASTM 3034, Scd 35.

Glued PVC or ABS isn't an alternative?

 

[CurlyDave]

Glued PVC or ABS isn't an alternative?

I have installed a few of these, not a pro by any means, but have always considered Glued black ABS to be the superior pipe. Never had a leak or any kind of root intrusion. Just have to be sure to apply the glue properly.

 

[ultrarunner]

Almost all trenchless now in my area...

Sewer district is replacing all the 8" mains with trenchless so they have to dig each lateral and will pull a new trenchless to the property line with a clean out at no charge...

Unfortunate for me... I paid to have mine done last year... the orangeberg was just too far gone.

Some of the neighbors are have all new laterals done at little cost... less than a $1000 since the hard work is already being done with the mains.

In front of my home, the main crosses a ridge and is down 30 feet for gravity flow from about a 100 homes on the other side...

At the time it was installed... it was the deepest residential main in the city...

I've been told the not to expect normal access to my home during the process...

 

[sdkubota]

Glued PVC or ABS isn't an alternative?

They are but are not normally specified for sewer projects. I would take rubber gasketed pipe/fittings over glued any day. They allow for some movement due to temperature changes and pretty much gauranteed a water tight joint.

 

[450EXC]

Sorry, do not have a link but im sure you can find one. Maybe look for a Tree Root Removal Video instead of relining.

It sounds like you are on the right track. If the pipe looks clean and no major damage you can save your money. You went from 2000 to 2012 with no problems ? If the pipe pipe is clean this time you might get another 12 years out of it. There are a lot of con artist companys out there trying to rip people off.

 

[ptgdigger]

Glued PVC or ABS isn't an alternative?

Every municipal sewer system in this region that I have install specs for says no glued pipe outside the foundation walls,SDR 35 gasketed pipe is now the standard because the joints can flex slightly and still pass an "air test" of 5psi for 15min. Most glued pipe installs will pass initially but fail 3 or 6 months later because of trench shifting breaking the glue bond.


We do have a problem making vertical vents and clean outs with gasketed however because "frost jacking" will bring the verticals right up out of the ground , disconnecting them ! Have to put a sleeve of larger pipe around the vertical which you can leave in or fill it with clean shale and the lift it out as you backfill.

Ray