New Home Heating Ideas

[El Wood]

Hey guys!

My wife and I are in the processing of building a new home out on 20 acres in southeast Michigan. Currently we use natural gas and electricity for utilities in town and our monthly bill is about $200. Out at the new place natural gas is not an option so we're stuck with propane at $1.89 a gallon. The size of our house is going to be 2800 sq feet with 1400 sq feet in the unfinished basement (9 foot concrete walls). My neighbor across said his monthly utilities bill is $600. Ouch! And his house is about the same size as ours (new one). I've been doing some reading on Geo Thermal as an option but up front costs are big. I can probably roll it into my mortgage though which might work. I was also thinking about only using propane for heat in the winter and then all other appliances could use electricity. Maybe a pellet burner?? I'm not sure what to do. Can anyone offer any advice?

 

[big lar]

There has been a a lot discussion on the TBN forum lately about outdoor wood boilers; you may want to look into burning wood as an option.

 

[rockinmywaypa]

I burn wood and enjoy it but if you have the option of putting the cost of the geo thermal into your mortgage then I don't think that you would ever regret it. Low monthly upkeep, central air in the summer. That's what I would do in your spot.

 

[nybirdman]

Make sure to super insulate your new place.You may want to look at passive solar.I am not a fan of pellet stoves,too much variation in pellets(BTU potential).Plus they look cheasy when running.I also would recommend an outside wood boiler,radiant infloor heat.Too bad you can't get natural gas,prices will contiue to drop.Propane is still tied to oil prices.

 

[El Wood]

Thanks for the replies. How often do you need to feed a wood boiler? Also, would anyone mind sharing their current utility setup, monthly cost and square footage of house for some comparison. Currently with electricity and natural gas my bill on the low end is $150 and high end is $300. My wife likes the house at 70 degrees year around. Square footage is 2400.

 

[Bilko]

I would at first make sure you insulate with the best product available! My father built our first house that was a ranch in 1975 and they would go through a tank of propane a month in winter. So they had to start burning wood to offset the propane cost. Then around 1987 they built a two story that was bigger then the first house right next door but had the foam insulation sprayed in and since then only go through around a tank and a half a year. And haven't heated with wood since the first house. I tried to call him for detailed info but he was gone hunting. We live in west MI.

 

[dave1949]

As your wife likes 70* all the time, the heat/ac combination seems like a good choice. It's good to identify what you want up front, it will narrow the choices considerably.

Have you checked out the mini-split ac and heat (I think) units? You could also have different zones or areas in a new house that are treated differently for heating and cooling. If you can close off a smaller section of your home, or think of compartmentalizing, that is to be closely controlled to 70*, it would help reduce your overall energy use. I am not sure if you mean 2800 sqft plus a 1400 sqft basement, or 1400 sqft on top of a 1400 sqft basement. 2800 sqft plus basement is enough to allow a couple of zones that are treated differently.

No matter what you do, super insulation makes any solution much easier and cheaper. Check out things like PassivHaus, a very low energy home building approach. This is the time to think outside the box, something that building new makes possible.

 

[El Wood]

I would at first make sure you insulate with the best product available! My father built our first house that was a ranch in 1975 and they would go through a tank of propane a month in winter. So they had to start burning wood to offset the propane cost. Then around 1987 they built a two story that was bigger then the first house right next door but had the foam insulation sprayed in and since then only go through around a tank and a half a year. And haven't heated with wood since the first house. I tried to call him for detailed info but he was gone hunting. We live in west MI.

Thanks Bilko. Please let me know what he says when you talk to him.

 

[El Wood]

As your wife likes 70* all the time, the heat/ac combination seems like a good choice. It's good to identify what you want up front, it will narrow the choices considerably.

Have you checked out the mini-split ac and heat (I think) units? You could also have different zones or areas in a new house that are treated differently for heating and cooling. If you can close off a smaller section of your home, or think of compartmentalizing, that is to be closely controlled to 70*, it would help reduce your overall energy use. I am not sure if you mean 2800 sqft plus a 1400 sqft basement, or 1400 sqft on top of a 1400 sqft basement. 2800 sqft plus basement is enough to allow a couple of zones that are treated differently.

No matter what you do, super insulation makes any solution much easier and cheaper. Check out things like PassivHaus, a very low energy home building approach. This is the time to think outside the box, something that building new makes possible.

Dave, thanks for the info. The house will be 2800 sq feet on top of an unfinished 1400 sq ft basement, so 4200 total. The zoning idea is good. I'll discuss that idea with our builder along with PassivHaus. He's big on the newest technologies so that is a plus.

 

[dave1949]

I lived in NW Ohio (Toledo, Bowling Green, Fremont) until I was 36 years-old. I would definitely need AC if I lived there. My Mom, who still lives in BG, just had a hot and miserable summer, so I suppose you did also.

The upfront cost of geothermal is high, but a standard air heat pump is very workable in your area. Plus, the ducting and mechanical systems in the house are close to being the same for geothermal or standard air heat pump. You could start with a regular air heat pump and if that doesn't suite, continue on with a geothermal-supplied unit later. Just reserve space in the yard for the type of geothermal system you would choose.

I am not knowledgeable enough about heat pumps to know if your best choice is to pair the AC heat pump with a furnace or use one of dual-purpose heat and AC units. I think a lot must depend on the heating/cooling degree days for your location.

Right now (and planned through 2016), you can get a 30% federal tax credit on geothermal systems. It is worth checking. Perhaps Mich. has it's own program too.
Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency : ENERGY STAR

 

[Tororider]

Whereabouts in se mi? I am north of Ann Arbor and hoping someday to do what you are doing now. Have you looked at building with ICFs or SIPs? Just a thought.

 

[Ranger Rick]

I would check out Geothermal heat pump. We have two units to heat and cool our home. One does the upstairs and one does the first floor. You have enough land you could use a horizontal loop field and just move heat from the ground into your house. There is a 30% federal tax credit which helps on the cost.

 

[tony Cecil]

Hey guys!

My wife and I are in the processing of building a new home out on 20 acres in southeast Michigan. Currently we use natural gas and electricity for utilities in town and our monthly bill is about $200. Out at the new place natural gas is not an option so we're stuck with propane at $1.89 a gallon. The size of our house is going to be 2800 sq feet with 1400 sq feet in the unfinished basement (9 foot concrete walls). My neighbor across said his monthly utilities bill is $600. Ouch! And his house is about the same size as ours (new one). I've been doing some reading on Geo Thermal as an option but up front costs are big. I can probably roll it into my mortgage though which might work. I was also thinking about only using propane for heat in the winter and then all other appliances could use electricity. Maybe a pellet burner?? I'm not sure what to do. Can anyone offer any advice?

I think you should stick with the tried and true systems....Alot of the relatively new stuff just opens the door to be taken advantage of......Times change and you will change with them, whereas one of these `nifty` new ideas age in place.....and many times end up being replaced at additional cost Tony

 

[El Wood]

Whereabouts in se mi? I am north of Ann Arbor and hoping someday to do what you are doing now. Have you looked at building with ICFs or SIPs? Just a thought.

Tororider,

I'm north of Ann Arbor also around the Brighton area. Where are you? Nice Deere by the way. I have a 3320. I'm not familiar with ICF's or SIP's.

 

[El Wood]

I lived in NW Ohio (Toledo, Bowling Green, Fremont) until I was 36 years-old. I would definitely need AC if I lived there. My Mom, who still lives in BG, just had a hot and miserable summer, so I suppose you did also.

The upfront cost of geothermal is high, but a standard air heat pump is very workable in your area. Plus, the ducting and mechanical systems in the house are close to being the same for geothermal or standard air heat pump. You could start with a regular air heat pump and if that doesn't suite, continue on with a geothermal-supplied unit later. Just reserve space in the yard for the type of geothermal system you would choose.

I am not knowledgeable enough about heat pumps to know if your best choice is to pair the AC heat pump with a furnace or use one of dual-purpose heat and AC units. I think a lot must depend on the heating/cooling degree days for your location.

Right now (and planned through 2016), you can get a 30% federal tax credit on geothermal systems. It is worth checking. Perhaps Mich. has it's own program too.
Federal Tax Credits for Energy Efficiency : ENERGY STAR

It was a hot summer! My wife had the AC unit working overtime! I like your idea about starting with a regular heat pump and seeing how it does. The 30 percent federal tax credit will help alleviate some of the costs too. I was unaware of that credit... Thanks!

 

[dave1949]

It was a hot summer! My wife had the AC unit working overtime! I like your idea about starting with a regular heat pump and seeing how it does. The 30 percent federal tax credit will help alleviate some of the costs too. I was unaware of that credit... Thanks!

The way I read it, the credit is only for a geothermal system, not a regular air to air heat pump. Your final out of pocket costs might not be that different with geothermal, but since it is a credit against taxes owed, that varies from person to person. You can carry over any unused credit for several years if you don't owe enough income tax to use it all in one year. You really need a knowledgeable heating and cooling contractor to give you comparative installation prices and annual operating cost differences to make a reasonable comparison.

For example, if the geothermal system costs more, but you can use the tax credit AND your annual electric bill is lower than with a standard heat pump, maybe after 10 years you break even on the costs. That's the sort of comparison needed to help you decide and it's very location dependent.

 

[whistlepig]

We have geothermal. That' what works best for us. We also have a pellet stove. The pellet stove is not so economical but is very good back up heat. We can run the pellet stove from our portable generator but not the geothermal.

 

[rrrkkk]

You need to contact a heating engineer called Doug Rye he is out of Arkansaw he has a web site and is an advocate of geo-thermal. I have had mine since 1990. It is the cheapest way I have to heat my house. I have hot water boiler and a wood stove but the geo is the most econimical there are more geo systems in Canada than the US and it has been around since the early 1900. Doug lists his phone # and will talk you thru what you need he will calclulate you furnace and a/c size if you send him your plans,

 

[IndyIan]

A well made and insulated home of any construction type can benefit from using nature to your advantage. Orienting the house to take advantage of the free heat from the sun in the winter, and having overhangs or deciduous trees shade your windows in the summer can cut bills by quite a bit.

 

[Dr Dave]

Check with your electric company and see if they offer rebates, mine has rebates for heat pumps and offered free Marathon water heaters for all electric homes. We have a seperate meter for heat pump and water heater, rate is half of normal rate, it is hooked to a radio controled switch and can be shut off for 15 min at a time by utility, during peak loads.

Dave