Found a coyote, I think

[Raspy]

Long thread, hopefully I'm not repeating something already said. A few months back, that research was written about in National Geographic. Very interesting article, and it was foxes. They started with the "friendlier" pups in a litter and kept breeding the "winners" on each subsequent generation. They ended up with foxes that showed all the traits of a typical family dog.

Another trait that came out in the study was color. After a few generations they began to get color variations. It seems like the perfect pathway to the domestic dog with all their variations. Then it can be done with size, or a particular hunting characteristic and eventually you have all the sizes, shapes and traits of the dog world. Very interesting.

Then they went the other way and only bred the meanest ones. Wow. pretty soon they had uncontrollable seething beasts that no one could approach.

In our case, we eliminated the affect a mother could have beyond her initial antibodies for health. No training from her at all. Then Sandy was raised by us and by Bei Bei. No one was ever mean to her. We helped her and cared for her. Bei Bei taught her the dog rules.

With the trust she had for us she still had her instincts. Soon she wanted to live outside. Then she built her den. Then she settled in to her daily sleeping/patrolling habits. She was always a bit wary, just for a few minutes, when meeting strangers. She had some hunting instincts and invented the keep away game, but didn't actually become successful at hunting beyond catching a few lizards and ants.

She was pretty clear about protecting her rabbits and would give a mild warning about protecting her gloves. Gloves were her favorite toy.

I also want to stress that we were wary. We were ready to take action if she became dangerous. Instead she played with us and greeted us and went out of her way to be a part of our lives. Was extremely warm and friendly. Joyous. Kind. Fun.

I have never seen behavior in her that would make it dangerous to have her as a domestic pet. We would have loved to keep her, but human fears and human laws made that a bad idea. Not because she was about to tear someone up, but because she was prohibited by law to get rabies shots or medical care. That's it. Prohibited by law to get shots or to get help if she was injured somehow. So she had to go live in a cage. This will prevent her from being a menace to society.

Rabies is a big concern, as we all know. Why is it a bad idea to give coyotes rabies shots? It works on them as well as it does on domestic dogs. Giving them the shot would not only reduce the spread and fear of rabies, it would also eliminate the agony of that kind of death.

But, on the bright side, sending her away offers so many a chance to learn more and begin to wonder if the pre-conceived notions need to be adjusted a bit. A chance to see a coyote up close in a non threatening situation. To learn more.

I know I've learned a lot. I'm grateful for that. And again, I hope many continue to be involved in this conversation and I hope a lot of people go meet her. Please do!

 

[Rock knocker]

I'm sure that she would have made a fine "dog" if you had been allowed to keep her. Canids are all pack animals, and when they figure out their place, all is OK.

The previously mentioned National Geographic article discussed how even very young puppies are drawn to humans. And dogs seem wired to follow human cues. Coyotes would lack this DNA, but there is nothing to suggest that individuals could co-exist with people with guidance and care. I wouldn't worry about my well loved pet coyote ripping out my throat in my sleep. But I would never trust any canis alone around a young child, and I would not pass out drunk and alone in the middle of a pack of hungry coyotes

 

[Raspy]

I'm sure that she would have made a fine "dog" if you had been allowed to keep her. Canids are all pack animals, and when they figure out their place, all is OK.

The previously mentioned National Geographic article discussed how even very young puppies are drawn to humans. And dogs seem wired to follow human cues. Coyotes would lack this DNA, but there is nothing to suggest that individuals could co-exist with people with guidance and care. I wouldn't worry about my well loved pet coyote ripping out my throat in my sleep. But I would never trust any canis alone around a young child, and I would not pass out drunk and alone in the middle of a pack of hungry coyotes

Well said. I wish I could say things that well.

 

[Rock knocker]

Thankyou, but you do!

I think you would have done fine with her, too bad laws are so black and white. I just wonder what the rational is? We met some gang-banger in Gardner MT this summer who lives in LV. He said that he raises wolves and/or hybrids inside the city limits of Las Vegas, and sells them to an eager market. I would guess that his "eager market" is much less suited to the safe raising of these large beasts than you are to a rather small canis.

 

[RandyBell]

John you said about the rabis vacine that they didn't allow it to be used for them( I don't remember the exact wording), but alot of vets are under the impression that it doesn't work on wild caninds Wolves, coyotes and foxes. If it didn't work I had read(in a vets office) that Europe had eradicated rabies on their continent by placing vaccine in bait put out for the wildlife. It seemed to work well for them, I just believe that alot of people just have a predjudice against anything out of the black and white. We have been blessed to have found several vets in our area that don't share these beliefs as our wolves have never had any problems with any of their vaccines, or people or doctors. Our female looks just like the white female where Sandy is, and the Boy he is her nephew, but has Great plains in him and he is longer, taller, but lighter in wieght than her. You could hide the wolf in her, but not the boy! He just can't help it but it just flows from him. The first year at our place in the country at Halloween the first one to come up the drive was a little girl, and it was "Look Mommy they have a Wolf" she was about 4yrs old. His biggest problem is he thinks everyone comes to visit HIM atfer he has had his affection he wanders off and quits pestering. But is all in how you raise an animal that makes all the difference in the world.

Randy

 

[Rock knocker]

John you said about the rabis vaccine that they didn't allow it to be used for them( I don't remember the exact wording), but a lot of vets are under the impression that it doesn't work on wild caninds Wolves, coyotes and foxes

Interesting. It seems like there actually is a feeling that the vaccine would work on foxes, wolves, hybrids and coyotes. But the testing on non-dog canine has not been done. Big (vet) Pharm is not interested in spending the money, and vets are reticent to give the vaccine to non-dogs because it is 1) off-label, and 2) they could then become involved in a law-suit if a vaccinated non-dog bit a human. The actions of the vets insurance could be difficult to judge, and some seem concerned that their insurance may be void in such a case.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellit...goBlobs&blobwhere=1251811788730&ssbinary=true

rabies

WHO | Zoonotic Infections

 

[Raspy]

Randy,

I love your example of the little kid recognizing a wolf. Us too. We were out camping and there was a family from the Czech Republic there. Their young son who had probably never seen a coyote before called out to his Mom. Look! There's a coyote over there! We cracked up and still talk about it. Soon, Sandy was over there meeting them. We kept her on a leash, but they had a close encounter.

Then, my neighbor was at our place and we were taking some pictures one day. She sent one off to her son in Colorado. Sandy was in it but not the theme. A few days later an excited email flew in. "MOM! There was a coyote right behind you!

Those two examples seem to indicate she'd have a hard time blending into the dog world. Can you imagine a trip to the beach?

I'm so glad you made it through the mine field of regulation and prejudice with your fine dogs! You and I are on the same page with dogs. They are wonderful animals and a tremendous asset to mankind. I think we both get that they must be understood and cared for properly.

The vaccine does work on Coyotes, obviously. I asked a sympathetic vet and I asked them at Southwest. They were surprised at my question. "Of course it works. That's what we use". And by the way, they also give the preventive rabies shots to every PERSON there that is in possible danger. That's right, every human, who might come in contact with any of the wild animals gets a preventive treatment. I believe it's the same shot, or shots, that people get when bitten by an unknown dog.

The vaccine issue is a good "foot in the door" to start the conversation about the dangers of rabies in wild animals. That's why I jump up and discuss the point whenever someone talks about crazy, vicious, wild dogs. If they are, why not vaccinate them or their offspring? Are we concerned about rabies or do we want agonizing deaths of coyotes? I submit we want dead coyotes. And how they die is irrelevant because people hate them.

Many of these opinions come from people that have hunting dogs, guard dogs, or companion dogs right now, sitting next to them and enjoying the evening inside. They marvel at the friendship a dog provides. Are they unable to recognize the value of their own dog's ancestors or wonder what traits the elders still possess?

My little cutie is sitting in a cage, 800 miles away, right now, because I could not get her a vaccine to protect my neighbors if she happened to scratch them and they asked about it. She'll be there for the rest of her life because of the belief that ALL coyotes are vicious, and possibly rabid, killers. Very few people have ever even seen one or been affected by them in any way. Interesting isn't it?

Meanwhile, the sanctuary can and did vaccinate Sandy. It's just illegal for me or a normal vet to do it.

She is so smart and determined to have a full life, to be free to roam the night and play games, to express her loyalty to a chosen mate, howl with her pack, or just to run as fast as she can sometimes, that they have to work with her to keep her mentally stable during her confinement.

These are the things that make me ask "why" and actually do some research. Make me enter the conversation.

I've never said coyotes are not dangerous. They are. Especially if rabid or hungry. But then, so is a pack of hungry domestic dogs.

I'm sitting her laughing at how silly it all seems. All of this came from a moment of compassion, as my neighbor reached down to pick up a helpless and nearly frozen little handful from the desert floor. That little furball turned into a "vicious killer" that likes to fall asleep on her back as I scratch her tummy, or ride for hours in the car snuggled up next to me.

Excuse me as I climb down off this soapbox, end the rant and take Bei Bei for our evening walk. The full moon beckons and my glass is getting dangerously low.

Good to her form you!

 

[Raspy]

Rock,

I'm glad you've become involved in the conversation. Nice posts.

 

[BMod]

Raspy tell those girls in this pic to watch out, that white doggie behind the glass doors looks to be the most vicious of the three in the pic, lol....

 

[Rock knocker]

The vaccine does work on Coyotes, obviously. I asked a sympathetic vet and I asked them at Southwest. They were surprised at my question. "Of course it works. That's what we use". And by the way, they also give the preventive rabies shots to every PERSON there that is in possible danger. That's right, every human, who might come in contact with any of the wild animals gets a preventive treatment. I believe it's the same shot, or shots, that people get when bitten by an unknown dog.

The vaccine issue is a good "foot in the door" to start the conversation about the dangers of rabies in wild animals. That's why I jump up and discuss the point whenever someone talks about crazy, vicious, wild dogs. If they are, why not vaccinate them or their offspring? Are we concerned about rabies or do we want agonizing deaths of coyotes? I submit we want dead coyotes. And how they die is irrelevant because people hate them.

This brings up several interesting points. I think to a degree that rabies is an effective population management agent, especially for raccoons. But I would imagine that if rabies could be wiped out in North America, the citizens and the governments would be all for it. It just seems that it would be too difficult, there are too many vectors: bats throughout NA, raccoons in the US and Canada, foxes in the north and coyotes in the SW.

I don't think that the body large of anglo North America want coyotes dying an agonizing death of rabies, it is just that the vaccination of wild animals is not viewed as an effective tool for the spread of rabies into humans and their pets. It is better to vaccinate dogs, to warn people of strange acting animals, and to monitor the wild population.

But watching the reaction to wolf repopulation on hiking and hunting boards, as well as in conversation with my environmentally minded friends, I would certainly agree that there is a huge degree of anthropomorphizing wolves and coyotes. Some view the wolf as a noble creature, and others view both as vicious killers of the lowest order. I like looking at coyotes by my house. But I also hope they'll eat the mice and rabbits, and spare the baby deer. I want to hear and see a wolf in the wild, but I wonder how aggressive they really are, even though I know all the statistics.

http://www.who-rabies-bulletin.org/About_Rabies/Control.aspx

 

[Rock knocker]

I've never said coyotes are not dangerous. They are. Especially if rabid or hungry. But then, so is a pack of hungry domestic dogs.

Here are a some links to dog attack reports. Two of them are the well known Clifton reports. Merrit Clifton is a journalist and member of Animal People, and is uniformly hated by pit-bull owners for his characterization of pits. But without entering the editorial chatter, both his reports and the CDC report does an admirable job of compiling information. I am particularly impressed Clifton's 2008 analysis and observations upon husky and German Shepard bites. Husky's are involved in quite a few serious bites, but almost all are in Eskimo, Indian and First Nations settlements, where the dogs go feral all summer long.

Clifton report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2011.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

Dog Attack Deaths Maimings, U.S. & Canada September 1982 to January 2008

I'm sitting her laughing at how silly it all seems. All of this came from a moment of compassion, as my neighbor reached down to pick up a helpless and nearly frozen little handful from the desert floor. That little furball turned into a "vicious killer" that likes to fall asleep on her back as I scratch her tummy, or ride for hours in the car snuggled up next to me.

That's the important part

 

[Raspy]

This brings up several interesting points. I think to a degree that rabies is an effective population management agent, especially for raccoons. But I would imagine that if rabies could be wiped out in North America, the citizens and the governments would be all for it. It just seems that it would be too difficult, there are too many vectors: bats throughout NA, raccoons in the US and Canada, foxes in the north and coyotes in the SW.

I don't think that the body large of anglo North America want coyotes dying an agonizing death of rabies, it is just that the vaccination of wild animals is not viewed as an effective tool for the spread of rabies into humans and their pets. It is better to vaccinate dogs, to warn people of strange acting animals, and to monitor the wild population.

But watching the reaction to wolf repopulation on hiking and hunting boards, as well as in conversation with my environmentally minded friends, I would certainly agree that there is a huge degree of anthropomorphizing wolves and coyotes. Some view the wolf as a noble creature, and others view both as vicious killers of the lowest order. I like looking at coyotes by my house. But I also hope they'll eat the mice and rabbits, and spare the baby deer. I want to hear and see a wolf in the wild, but I wonder how aggressive they really are, even though I know all the statistics.

Rabies - Bulletin - Europe

I completely agree that it would be too difficult to try and vaccinate every animal to wipe out rabies. Seems impossible.

I also get the same sense from people about the wild dogs as you've mentioned. Some are extremely afraid and some are cautious, but interested. This is where I'd like to have some affect. Instead of operating from a position of fear and myth regarding the wild ones, why not find out more? Knowledge is powerful, but also difficult to get. I'm just a very curious type and I tend to discount blind fear of the unknown. Somehow we have to figure out a way to interface with them as our territory expands and their numbers increase.

In Sandy's case I did my own research. Research in all phases of her existence. Her medical needs, temperament, intelligence and instinctual needs, etc. The legal issues surrounding her and the human opinion factor from all that I could expose her to such as neighbors, friends, vets, attorneys, on-line commenters, etc. We took her with us at various ages and did things with her that are only done with domestic dogs. We took her to restaurants, supermarkets, friends houses, long car trips, camping trips. We went to the city and played in the country. We went for long walks and we spent time indoors. She lived with us and our two other dogs and one cat. Met the neighbor's animals too. We made notes, wrote diaries, took photos, watched reactions. You name it.

Of course, this is only one dog, but it was very informative. It certainly revealed the full spectrum of human emotion. Every response imaginable was projected toward her. The reflection revealed more about the person than about Sandy. From wild eyed fear and loathing to nurturing and cuddling. All toward the same dog. No one was ever hurt in any way even though she was definitely out of her natural environment.

One friend I've known for about 30 years was a good example. We visited him and his wife one day. We came in and sat down carrying a little bag. All was fine. After a while we introduced them to our little friend by letting her poke her head out of the bag. Boy did that change the mood! We seriously crossed the line and were acting incredibly stupid. You can't do that!!! Their reaction was far worse than the one from their own dog.

If I would have simply said she was a Shepherd pup, she would have been in everyone's lap within seconds. But the word Coyote made us suddenly unwelcome.

Sometimes it's fun to throw a wrench in the gears, but there can be consequences.

 

[RandyBell]

Rock Knocker; alot of good info, although I still think that rabies could be seriously reduced by oral baiting, the biggest rreason it won't be done over here is politics. The cost would be considerable and Politicians would not what to spend the money on something like this when they could get it for their own use, kinda shows what I've seen from most politicans in the last 40 years. Even if it was used around urban areas I believe it would be a big benifit.

John; there is not an animal that is more dangerous than a pack of domestic dogs that are running wild, even if just temopary. A wild animal unless rabid has a fear of man and will flee if given the chance, a few large carnivors excluded.
That is what makes the wolf-hybrids so dangerous, you have the strength and cunning of the wolf with out the fear of man. I was bitten year ago by a German Shepard, that I had known for a while, but it didn't keep him from biting me and having to be beaten by his owners to get him to let go of me, kinda gave me a heathy respect for large dogs. Anke bitters almost all of the small breeds bite more than the large dogs, we had a Pom that was so bad about it I wore my boots all the time, she was my wifes dog!

Weasle our male wolf( we name all our animals by their personality) has dominance issues and doesn't like to be leaned over, like brushing him, so you work around that, I held him down this morning and my wife brushed him! When it was done he ran to his cage to cool off about 5 minutes then came out and gave kisses to say he forgave us! He is not as tolerent of real small kids as Shadow our female, she just washes their face and keeps watch over them, he will watch them but it doesn't take long for him to ecape to his cage, so when he does this we shut the door so he doesn't get disturbed, it is better safe than sorry.

So you can see so many different personalities in animals and still have a good life with them.

Good luck all

Randy

 

[RandyBell]

Rock Knocker; alot of good info, although I still think that rabies could be seriously reduced by oral baiting, the biggest rreason it won't be done over here is politics. The cost would be considerable and Politicians would not what to spend the money on something like this when they could get it for their own use, kinda shows what I've seen from most politicans in the last 40 years. Even if it was used around urban areas I believe it would be a big benifit.

John; there is not an animal that is more dangerous than a pack of domestic dogs that are running wild, even if just temopary. A wild animal unless rabid has a fear of man and will flee if given the chance, a few large carnivors excluded.
That is what makes the wolf-hybrids so dangerous, you have the strength and cunning of the wolf with out the fear of man. I was bitten year ago by a German Shepard, that I had known for a while, but it didn't keep him from biting me and having to be beaten by his owners to get him to let go of me, kinda gave me a heathy respect for large dogs. Anke bitters almost all of the small breeds bite more than the large dogs, we had a Pom that was so bad about it I wore my boots all the time, she was my wifes dog!

Weasle our male wolf( we name all our animals by their personality) has dominance issues and doesn't like to be leaned over, like brushing him, so you work around that, I held him down this morning and my wife brushed him! When it was done he ran to his cage to cool off about 5 minutes then came out and gave kisses to say he forgave us! He is not as tolerent of real small kids as Shadow our female, she just washes their face and keeps watch over them, he will watch them but it doesn't take long for him to ecape to his cage, so when he does this we shut the door so he doesn't get disturbed, it is better safe than sorry.

So you can see so many different personalities in animals and still have a good life with them.

Good luck all

Randy

 

[Rock knocker]

John; there is not an animal that is more dangerous than a pack of domestic dogs that are running wild.....

Sans one,


And this is what it takes to quell the trouble when the Lakers win

 

[MotorSeven]

Sans one,
And this is what it takes to quell the trouble when the Lakers win

Amazing isin't it...a pack of "wild dogs" is delt with swiftly and harshly....yet humans out "rioting" is darn near tolerated.

 

[MotorSeven]

Sans one,
And this is what it takes to quell the trouble when the Lakers win

Amazing isin't it...a pack of "wild dogs" is delt with swiftly, harshly & appropriatly....yet humans out "rioting" is darn near tolerated.

 

[RandyBell]

MotorSeven I am glad to see you are getting double posts, I was begining to think I was doing something wrong.

 

[biker4jc]

Raspy IT's been a real pleasure to see what you've done with that dog. I'm sorry for the bigotry that she's been subjected to, but then as a species humanity still struggles with that aspect within itself. I'm fairly sure some "foghorn leghorn" will disagree ........... and not be able to substantiate his reasons, just repeat some stoic dogma he's learned by rote and never had the courage to challenge. I would have loved to meet Sandy and may do so yet. This thread was something I found by accident and feel like I've become involved. Like others here I would strongly encourage you to find a way to get this story out to the public via a book and since reading seems to escape much of society, a movie. I'm sure this would make an excellent Disney flick if old Walt were still alive. Like you I feel it necessary to define wild ....... urban teenagers could be classified as wild ........ just a random thought there. And ...... where are the greenpeacers in all this? Are their causes only selective?
Like I said earlier ........ Thank you for allowing us a glimpse of this story!

 

[biker4jc]

Raspy IT's been a real pleasure to see what you've done with that dog. I'm sorry for the bigotry that she's been subjected to, but then as a species humanity still struggles with that aspect within itself. I'm fairly sure some "foghorn leghorn" will disagree ........... and not be able to substantiate his reasons, just repeat some stoic dogma he's learned by rote and never had the courage to challenge. I would have loved to meet Sandy and may do so yet. This thread was something I found by accident and feel like I've become involved. Like others here I would strongly encourage you to find a way to get this story out to the public via a book and since reading seems to escape much of society, a movie. I'm sure this would make an excellent Disney flick if old Walt were still alive. Like you I feel it necessary to define wild ....... urban teenagers could be classified as wild ........ just a random thought there. And ...... where are the greenpeacers in all this? Are their causes only selective?
Like I said earlier ........ Thank you for allowing us a glimpse of this story!